Will Mary Lou's Mind Be Changed?

Welcome to the necessary conversation midweek edition. Today we are blessed to have a very important guest. She is an actress, singer, songwriter, drag queen, and activist. She was the first out transgender player on Rupaul's Drag Race season 9 where she finished in second place. She was a lead on Broadway in the Go-Go's inspired musical Head Over Heels. She has released two full albums, five EPs. She was banished, in my opinion, way too early >> on season two of the Traitors US along with friend of the necessary conversation Bob the Drag Queen. co-founded Black Queer Town Hall, a nonprofit committed to celebrating black queer excellence by supporting and cultivating community, sharing knowledge, and uplifting voices. We are humbled. We are honored that she is now sharing her knowledge and time with us today. Please welcome to the show a superstar in every sense of the word, Peppermint. >> Yelcome. >> Hello. Thank you so much. I'm so happy to be here with the family. What a wonderful intro. Thank you. I'm so excited. Huge fan. Oh, well I mean I can say the same. I I do another podcast that's a reality TV coverage podcast and so uh season two of the Traders was like >> God was mind-blowing and I'm sorry that you got banished so early. I wanted to see what you were going to do in that game. >> Me too. Me too. >> Yeah. Thank you. Maybe they'll bring me back for All Stars or something. Who knows if they have they do something like that. But I really do. I love the show. I love shows like that. And um yeah, they got me. I'll have to come. We'll have to talk uh when when it's when the subject is reality TV. But they got me now. >> They got me. >> Well, um first of all, thank you for doing this. And my first question to you is why are you doing this? Why are you on our show right now? >> Wait a minute. I thought this was a different show. No, I I love the show. I love your family. I love uh I think I saw first sort of discovered you on social media with everyone else with an early clip. I don't even know if it was a clip of the show or just a clip of you and your mom initially like that kicked off the whole thing. Um but I fell in love I fell in love with the um the cander in which with which you all speak to each other. Sometimes it gets a little wild. Uh but the love is always there >> which is great and uh you have some great examples and you know obviously these are necessary conversations just like the namesake and so I'm happy to finally be having one. >> All right. Well, like I said, thanks for being here. I um I'm very curious to see, Mom, what your reaction is going to be, but I wanted to, if you wouldn't mind, Peppermint, just kind of laying out a basic um a basic life story if you wouldn't mind. Where did you grow up? How did you grow up? Uh when did you become kind of socially, politically active, motivated, and and what were the triggers in your life that made you kind of go down that path? >> I mean, who said I grew up? I resent that. Uh apologize. Yeah, >> I'm from the east coast. I'm a I'm an east coast gal. Uh was born in Pennsylvania but grew up in sort of the Delaware, Maryland, Virginia area and then was always like um super, you know, my family's like very, I guess liberal is the word. Like they were all Democrats and very liberal. And I uh sort of carried that ideology and sort of like that thought, you know, proudly into my adulthood. And I always knew that I was queer, which kind of made me feel a little bit marching to the beat of a different drummer. Uh sometimes I was like, you know, experienced bullying and teasing and things like that. So that gave me an awareness about myself that I think a lot of people don't always have right out of the gate. uh and I eventually moved to New York for college uh in the late 90s and was here in New York during 9/11. I'm still in New York and I think uh you know I think I became more politically active just sort of by default as of course people who are queer or who are you know part of a marginalized group different minorities you know they're no stranger to having to at least think about um asserting or fighting for their rights in a way that might be different for someone who's not any of those groups. um you know, straight, >> heterosexual, uh you know, white or white passing um you know, American US citizen, you know, like those those sort of descriptors mean that you're that you might not face you're not going to face like anti-black discrimination necessarily if you have white skin, >> right? >> It could happen, but probably not. >> Have you ever experienced that? Certainly, even this week, stranger things have happened. >> Uh, but I I I so but ultimately coming out as trans, >> being being queer for sure, and then uh being trans, which I came out, uh, you know, when I was, I don't know, in my 30s, more than 10 years ago. Uh I you know suddenly I was a part of a group a part of another group um who were constantly in the headlines constantly being talked about whether we have the right to do this should we be allowed here what what >> everybody's asking everybody what they think about people like me except for asking people like me like we we're not allowed to be in the conversation >> and so uh that's kind of what got me more um politically active I would say and then that you know I think LGBT BTQ issues were not really things that the even the the president and people in the higher ups of the federal government were really talking about. I remember like hoping and begging that like Obama would just mention the word LGBT in his speech. Just say the word. >> And that was like >> it was like you know I remember feeling like oh my god he said and like feeling like we won. >> Yeah. Well, he was he was the first president to ever mention uh transgender people. Period. >> Period. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> So, that felt like a big accomplishment. And then but it's it's sort of like an entire lifetime has happened since that moment to where we are now where the president is actively saying in his very first speech as in his second um term recently that he's going to target trans people and you know um make sure that there's no gender affirming care like that was in his like not inaugural speech but his like first speech after his inauguration from the White House. No, I made a little list here. He's issued multiple executive orders in this term, in his second term. They overtly harm the trans and non-binary communities. Uh, refusing to issue passports to transgender and non-binary citizens, eliminating federal funding for schools that recognize trans rights, outlawing gender affirming care in hospitals, banning trans athletes from playing sports, barring transgender citizens from serving in the military, removing public health data from federal databases that benefit trans community. It it the list goes on and on and on. What has it been like for you in this like whatever it's been about a year and a half since he was back in office? >> It's terrifying to be honest with you. And I uh you know th this second administration, the second term is sort of a sort of the first term on steroids. We got a taste of a lot of these things. I mean, very early on in his first administration, I think it was 2017, where he, you know, enacted a trans military ban and was toying with and teasing with speaking about the trans community in a in a sort of really not so nice way. Um, and so we were getting tastes of all those things. Uh, but they were at from the top down there was a lot less. most of what we were seeing was happening at the state level which was obviously supported by his administration and emboldened by the administration but not necessarily he wasn't like putting us in executive orders in the way that he is now. uh whereas I mean I think in 20 uh 2016 there were like 30 or four like less than a hundred anti-trans uh and anti-LGBT but specifically anti-trans pieces of legislation or policies in the states many of which were fought in court and then won um as opposed to in 20 this term 2025 2026 currently uh this year there's over 700 pieces like pieces of anti-trans trans anti-trans >> and what's and what's the percentage of trans people in the United States? Uh I don't know the percentage of trans people that are in the United States currently, but we are like one >> right >> about 1% of the population like conversationally. Now that doesn't account for people who don't feel safe to come out of like it's almost like saying I mean it's mostly statistically right but so you know there are certainly people who are homosexual but aren't counted in the numbers of >> I have to excuse myself real quick. I apologize. I've got to excuse myself real quick. I'll be right back. Oh my god. >> Is dad screaming out there? >> Yes. Just a minute. I'm so sorry. I'll be right back. >> When you come back, mom, I have a question for you. Um, yeah. No, that's that's like one of the wildest pieces of this is that it's like >> in in terms of whatever the statistics may be, the population, the amount of legislation that is against trans people is absolutely crazy. I mean it's definitely we're over represented in in terms of like the effort and energy that people are putting into making laws and policies. Uh but you know and on one hand it it is cruel and it is real. So the impact is real. I am you know I'm someone who works as a drag entertainer and then also now a little bit more in advocacy. Um, but I travel a lot for work also internationally and I am now I can't believe I'm in the same boat as a Caitlyn Jenner. Um, where I am facing not being able to travel within the next six months when my passport expires because getting a renewal means that I'll be um having a mismatched piece of identification. And it is, you know, I think a lot of people might think, oh, whatever, just you just go with a mismatch identification. But the thing is, you know, especially now, probably more than ever, um, our passports, our IDs, our information are all, thanks to Palunteer and other, um, uh, and probably Elon Musk as well. Um, they're they're sort of, um, organizing all of our digital data so that it's all on one database. That's what that's what they're attempting to do. Which means if there's a discrepancy with the DMV back in like 1800, if there was a discrepancy with the Well, they didn't have passports in 1800, but like back in like 20 years ago or 30 years ago, if you had a discrepancy between your license and your passport, no one would really know necessarily. But now that information is flagging as a red flag on your profile, that there's a discrepancy in your profile. Um, and so I my my ID won't match. Um, and luckily though, I live in New York. Um, so I'm more shielded from the impacts of the administration, namely the big beautiful bill that's kicking people off of their health insurance. Certainly trans people are sort of doubly kicked off. There's there's people who were kicked off their their health insurance just period. But for trans people or anyone who's in that DEI group that you mentioned, the list of names that had to be removed from federal databases and documents and and all types of things that also applies to um insuranceances. And so, you know, a year or two ago or before this administration, it was my my doctor knew that I was transgender. So, they were treating me in a way that's in in accordance with that. Um, you know, c receiving certain therapies and medications. that's what what would be listed on my I guess you know insurance they need to like list everything >> code everything for medical billing. Uh but now they're erasing us from medical billing which means that there's not even going to be a way to acknowledge the need for the medication that I need, you know. >> Yeah. Mom, you've been sitting here pretty much silent other than having to go tend to dad when he was screaming at you in the other room. But this is I'm assuming the first conversation you've ever had with a transgender person. Is that accurate, Mom? >> Yes. >> Okay. >> I just I want to say this. If I say anything wrong, I don't mean to offend you. I don't know a lot about it. So, I don't want to offend you already. I really really like you. I want to ask you a question. >> Before I say, I'd be offended if you didn't offend me. How about that? When you said you were bullied, what what age did you get bullied and why? And were you a male? I mean, were you a boy then? And see, I don't want that to offend you. I don't understand. >> Don't worry. Uh, you know, I was assigned male at birth. So, most of my experiences were through that lens. And I didn't have uh I didn't transition medically, which most most of the transition that people think about when they think of trans person is medical things, but the social transition is the bigger part of it, which is like clothing, hairstyle, things like that. >> Um but most of my transition didn't happen until later on. uh you know I mean I'm I I was born in the 70s and so you know like I didn't have access to some of the things that even uh younger folks have hopefully have access well are losing access to today. Um so yeah I was bullied. I think people when they saw me you would if you saw me you would think wow that is a very feminine little boy. Like that's what you would say and it would be emphasis would be like wow what's going on >> and now we know >> you got bullied because of that you got bullied because of that >> and what age was that like high school then or >> definitely high school but uh as as soon as I got into a room with a bunch of other kids uh so >> preschool uh before first grade first grade second grade third grade it was like a thing by second grade so much so that I didn't have a ton of friends most of my friends were the gals which, you know, makes sense. Uh, but I had a friend who was a there was a a transfer student from another country from Ireland. His name was Gavin. Uh, and we've spoken since, so he's okay with me saying his name. Uh, and I remember coming out to him and I didn't really have the, we were in second grade. I did not have the language to come out to him in the way that I would today, but I did tell him that, you know, in a very serious and dramatic way. Um, you know, listen, I'm different. and he understood exactly what I meant and he was like it's okay blah blah blah blah blah and there was nothing more to say you know at that point at that such a young age but um I I was I had felt the need to articulate that so I was definitely I know that I was having sort of bullying experiences or teasing experiences before that moment >> but you dress like a boy then or a little girl or lean more girl dressing or >> yeah, I dressed in like jeans and a t-shirt or whatever you would dress your son in at that age, you know, going to school. I didn't really I didn't really appear >> probably sort of as female to people until um until high school. That was the first time I was able to sort of have independence, you know, and like not have to go home after school right away, you know, things like that. I was >> And they kept bullying you then too that age. >> Oh yes. That was when I became more physical. >> Yeah. >> Even worse. Yeah. >> But mom like one of your um >> kind of main points of contention whenever this type of thing gets talked about on our show is that you believe little kids can't in quotes make the choice. You know that they're too young. >> Not make the choice but that they feel that. And now that >> right >> Peppermint correct just told me that. Is that what I should call you? That's your name, right? >> Yes, please. That's my name. >> What Peppermint is saying is that this was in the 70s. I don't know how old exactly you are. I'm assuming 29 years of age, just like me. >> Also born in the 70s. We are both 29 forever. Let's agree on that. Now, >> Peppermint is more Haley's age. I think I think Peppermint could be more Haley's age. >> We're getting into murky territory here. I think you don't like that. >> Sorry. I listen I live in that murky territory at this point. >> I'm just saying like imagine when when I was in second grade what the world was like. You know what I mean? >> I like to be a private eye. I told you that Chad. I think that could be my second job. And she's >> intuitive. Everyone is Haley's age. >> Okay. Whatever. Let's say Haley's age. Imagine when Haley was in the second grade. That era. You know what I mean? Imagine what the world was like back then. And imagine a kid knowing enough about themselves to know this in that era. It was probably It was before. Yeah. >> Right. But I'm saying it was before all the things that you say contribute to a kind of brainwashing epidemic that is happening. It was before those things even existed. There was no Trump in politics. Woke was not a terminology. None of that existed. And here you've got >> a sense of much community. I mean at that age for sure. Uh, I, you know, I didn't know that I belonged to what we would later refer to as the LGBTQ plus community. I just thought I I knew I was different and I knew >> I that I was catching a lot of flack for it. And I I thought I was the only one. And I know that there's even people who who are maybe not so much now, but certainly people who are like in their 20s or 30s, late 20s, early 30s or or older who uh even as gay had the experience of feeling like they were alone, you know, until they were able to meet other people later on. And so, yeah, I knew that I was, you know, I knew that I was very, very different when it came to what we would call gender and potentially even sexuality later on. I didn't describe it in that way in second grade to Gavin on the playground, right? But I knew that that meant and and I always gravitated towards and if I had my choice, I would have desperately wanted to wear I didn't care whether I was wearing a dress or not, but I just wanted to be free of being teased and and targeted for the way I spoke or walked or picked up a drink or whatever I was doing. Like every single thing I was doing, mostly my mannerisms were under scrutiny by other people. And I didn't I didn't learn how to do that from a a book or like watch some TV show. There was none of that. I was alone. I thought only human. >> Did your parents or siblings realize this when you were that little too? >> You know what? I hadn't still haven't spoken to them about what they thought when about me when I was younger. I there was it was un there's no way that they could have thought like, oh, this one's going to be like a basketball player. like there's no way. >> Our family kind of did. Yeah. Okay. >> And so, you know, they they were supportive. Um, and I would say the word that I would use to describe it now looking back would be tolerant, >> you know. >> Okay. >> So, mom, you've been sitting here a minute. We've been having this conversation for a minute. Is your your general ideology changing at all? Are you feeling like are you getting >> Yeah, a little bit. Um, >> okay. >> I like peppermint. >> I like you too. >> I want peppermint to be happy. >> Okay, great. But >> but the part there's one other part I would like to discuss. >> Hit me, gal. >> I'm gonna hit I I won't hit you hard. I like you, Peppermint. Um the part about boys play boys sports, girls play girl sports. So if you were born biologically a man or a boy, don't you feel that you know you you're strong? Are you stronger than most females? You know, that's the part where I kind of go down a rabbit hole and go, I don't under, you know, I I think boys should play boy sports, girls should play girl sports, but then if you what do you call it where you um you know, you've gone from a boy to a girl, right? Am I doing this right? I have no idea. >> Yeah, I don't I'm Yeah, ask. Yes, I'm I'm with you. I'm following you. >> You hear kind of what I'm saying? So now I don't know, do you play boy sports or do you play girl sports? >> Listen, I think all sports should be immediately outlawed. I hate sports. I think >> illegal. >> That's a hardcore take. >> You all want to You all want to cry about sports. How about no sports for anybody? Uh yeah, I I don't uh so I don't play sports. Uh I did uh I was I was forced to be in gym class. >> Okay. >> You do you you play in my opinion the greatest sport in existence which is reality television >> reality TV. >> Don't get me started. That's true. I mean, beyond athleticism, the the psychological component required to be a reality player to to make it to on a season of drag race to make it to the finals, there is a certain skill set that almost no one has. And I view it as the same level as professional sports, athletics, if you will. >> I I'll take that. And I was kind of teasing a little bit before, uh, but to answer your question, Mom, I listen, the this is a he hefty conversation. Um, and I'm not an athlete, but I I think first and foremost, there's two reasons people join sports. As a youngster, they or someone who's not professional, they join it for community. They join it for connection and fun. >> And then as an adult, they or as a as a professional athlete, >> professional or Olympian, it's a completely different thing. it's for contracts and money and all different types of things. >> And so that's something those are two different reasons I think that people join sports. Uh and I think that a lot of the conversation about sports um sort of hinges on this sort of bi biologic bi biological uh argument and the notion of fairness. And I I do think that like sports should be fair. I think that team sport should or competitive sports should be fair. Uh I think that that fairness should come from the results and sort of working backwards. You know, whoever is the tallest should be grouped with the tallest. Whoever is the this weight class or the strongest should be grouped with people that lift the same amount of weight that they do. Uh otherwise if it's a gendered class a sexed um sex or gendered separation then you are going to get especially if it is not professional sports you're going to get girls who are stronger and taller than other girls that's a natural that happens that's human bodies develop in different ways and I know that there are some we generalize a lot but the I think one of the things that that we've gotten wrong with um the notion of sex, sex classifications and gender classifications is that all women are the same. That all women's bodies are the same and all women have the same exact abilities in the same way. That's not true. And you know, one sizefits all really doesn't work. It doesn't work in the clothing stores. It doesn't work in terms of the choices that women want to make for themselves. Uh and neither are men. Um exactly. So, I think that's that's an important thing to to think of when we think of fairness. You know, it's really I'm sure that whoever came in 29th to Michael Phelps is like inhuman wingspan. They talk about his wingspan and how how superhuman he is. >> You know, I'm sure that whoever came in 29th would like to say, you know what, that's not fair. And I I know that people say that um medical transition can can or would potentially like aid people sort of as a performance-enhancing drug or something like that. But the the truth is when you look at the bodies and the pardon me the um when you look at the numbers of for trans people whether it's our you know sort of like uh medical numbers if you're testing our hormones and and all these different things that you might test. Um, most trans women are in line with cisgender women who are natural-born, biological women, whatever word you want to use. Non-trans women um are honestly about in line. And there was actually a report that ca several reports, but there was one that came out um by a really reputable source. I don't have it because I wasn't sure we were going to talk about sports. uh that that recently came out that uh people should look up that gives evidence that they've done recent studies and trans women athletes do not have an overwhelming advantage or much of an advantage and actually in many because they have different sort of categories uh many times are clocking in at a disadvantage uh that to to their cis counterparts and what I want I want people to do when they think of the argument of sports is what people tend to do is they say, "We don't want men, grown, muscular, 70-year-old men or 40-year-old men competing against young toddler baby girls." That's not happening anywhere. It's not men against girls. These are people of the same age group, the same, you know, like they're more similar than they are dissimilar when it comes to like it's not a man with little girls. These are people of this similar age, similar classifications, you know, and a lot of times similar abilities. If you're going to try out for the team, they'll either put you on the JV team or the or the varsity team or whatever, however they do it. I can't believe I'm even talking about I have no idea. But they'll already group you. coach or whoever is in charge of putting you on the team after the auditions, tryyous, whatever they are, will group you according to your ability. You know, I mean, they're they're going to put together the team that they think is the best that can win. >> I understand. Yeah, I understand all that what you're saying. But I think as you the word you said was medically transition as you have medically transitioned >> to the other >> what's it called? Not side sex. Yeah. If you have Yeah. If you have transitioned from, let's say, a female to a male, >> then they're going to give uh hormones. They're going to give um testosterone, right? >> Muscle muscle enhancing things to get stronger. >> So, I don't know. Just my mind. Just my mind. I'm thinking boys should compete with boys, girls with girls that you were born with. >> You're making the argument. Oh, go ahead. >> But then if you transition, that's the part I don't know where you go. Which is trying to >> trying to say that. So HRT works, you know, for both men and women, for both female and male. So, like, you know, if you're if you're a trans man, >> you are going to be taking testosterone. If you're a trans woman, you're going to be take you're taking testosterone blockers and then upping your estrogen. So, in essence, like the strength that you had prior to transition starts to diminish quite a bit because you are no longer uh fully loaded with testosterone like you were before. So, like if you're a transwoman competing in the Olympics, like you do not have the testosterone that you had prior, you're you're taking HRT to level that [ __ ] out. But if you're a male, if you're a woman going to be a male, don't you get a whole bunch of testosterone to make >> that makes you a very strong person with a huge muscles who would compete against and you would so most trans men, not all because everybody's not monolith, but most trans men who decide to medically transition and decide to take uh you know uh testosterone and and other uh cross- sex hormones uh will develop their body will start to change eventually. Uh will develop stronger muscles. They'll get stronger. They'll develop more body hair. Their their body shape and size >> will will transform to look like what you would say is a man walking down the street. >> And so who would that person >> compete against? If they can now bench 300 pounds, >> they should go with the people who can also bench 300 pounds, which are >> the men, >> right? You're right. Yeah. >> You're also missing the the bigger point that Peppermint was making is like even in like guys sports, let's say, there is such a disparity between physical abilities, physiques, all that. There's a guy in the NBA right now called Victor Webyama, aka Wemi. His nickname is the alien. This [ __ ] guy is 7 foot five. He's getting seven to 10 blocks per game. And it's just because he's like it looks like LeBron James looks like a child standing next to him >> because he's so huge. He's he's a monster, you know, the alien as I said. And so it's like >> what's >> I I hate to tell you >> but I like him now. you you would have to go to a basketball game or two maybe if you were if you started dating Victor women yama melting >> but I'm just saying like within any sport like part of what makes sports interesting is that everybody has there's a a drastic physical diversity in skills physique strength stamina whatever all that and that's what you're watching these people are competing on a stage that kind of like objectively lays out here's the rules of this game what can you do within the confines of those rules given your abilities I played college. I played college sports. You know that. I just wouldn't want to get I even played with a I had to beat one time a onearmed girl. Do you know how hard that was in tennis? But I beat her and I won. >> Okay. >> I mean, it was a match. >> Harder for you? >> Yeah. Hard for you? >> It was her. I'm competing. >> It was hard for me to beat her. Be I mean, I beat her. I I I could have beat her like 0 and 0. 60. I felt bad in my heart because she only had one arm. >> So, I wanted to, you know, >> You think that she should have not been able to compete? >> No, she should have been able to compete, but I I hated the handicap that she had because I knew I could wipe her out and beat her just straight up and I did, but I didn't. >> So, would that be an argument for you having to go to a a different like would what would compared to the trans sort of argument where would either of you where should they have moved either of you if they weren't going to have you >> well now today I guess in today's time there are handicap divisions or parah what's it called like par Olympics and things like that >> and at the time that I played back in the 70s there really weren't it was just coming around >> I think like what you're failing to acknowledge is that trans women are women and that trans men are men. You just have to acknowledge that it's just another woman competing in a female sport. >> And even if you don't want to acknowledge that, I work very closely with my doctor to take the medications and and continue my treatments and therapies uh related to my transition. And all of these are carefully considered and all according to the numbers. They look at my level of estrogen and we try to get it into the range and it is a wide range for cisgender women, women, non-trans women, um, who are signed female at birth, like depending on, you know, if you're on your cycle or like there's a lot of things that would make your hormones fluctuate obviously. And so the range is a wide range. And so within that range is where they we we try to go from zero from zero to up to that range because I don't I naturally because of where I am personally in my medical transition. I don't create any hormones which means you know I I know a lot of people think of hormones as like something that is like makes you feel pretty or whatever but like you need the human body needs them to for your endocrine system and I don't create any. So, it's medically necessary for me to be on hormones, period. Um, and so mine are within the range of a cisgender woman. And cis uh trans men, their goal is to be within the range of a of a normal average trans or sorry, a cisgender non-trans man. But if you're talking about an athlete, then then that's something completely different because I can guarantee you me against the M WNBA or even me against the high school girls um >> whatever basketball thing. >> Yeah, >> I know that they are have are more muscular, more athletic, faster, quicker, stronger, more skilled. Um uh and probably depending on you know we we know that your your body sort of um gives you what you need when you're doing the physical thing that you're doing. A lot of women develop and have more testosterone like women athletes might be h might have more testosterone more muscle mass all these things that's more than the average person and I'm in line with an average woman not an athlete at all. >> Okay. Okay. Why do I always read stories then? I mean, I don't understand this either. Where >> you need to unfollow JK Rowling, darling. >> Yeah. >> What? >> Unfollow JK Rowling. >> JK Rowling, >> writer of Harry Potter. >> Like transphobic. >> You know where I'm coming from? I'm coming from I read these stories where like I don't want to bring up a word but this shooter or whatever >> was a trans why do I you know >> like this particular person that shot someone or that you know was a shooter was a trans that was trying to transition and the medicine made him weird. I do read those stories. >> Okay. Well, there's one thing I do want to say um that those stories a lot of times again remember we hear so we I I would say probably 99 or probably 100% of what you know about trans people comes from who? Non-trans people who are not trans. These are people who are participating in a um conversation. I I don't imagine that the people that are the sources of those stories, I don't imagine that there's any situation that they would want to be inclusive of trans people in this in this in this where we are now. >> Um and so >> it's really important to get it from from the source. Now, >> I don't know any shooters, you know, and I'm strongly against gun violence and all of these different things, >> but being trans, it's so strange. The argument seems to be that being trans uh and taking medically transitioning, taking hormones makes you a shooter. And that's not true because trans people take the same exact hormones, okay, that you or anyone who's parameopausal. I'm not saying that you are, but any anyone who is older who may take certain hormone replacement therapy to sort of regulate their endocrine system, anyone who has a deficiency, people who uh there are youngsters who develop too fast uh because of probably the hormones that are in the milk and all that stuff, but that's a different conversation. Uh there are youngsters who are just cisgender non-trans people who young girls who get breast tissue and start to develop and hit um puberty at very early ages. They are prescribed medication if if their parents alongside their parents and their doctors if it seems like it's medically necessary which a lot of times it is uh are prescribed medication and therapies to uh to deal with what they call like precocious uh puberty right and and and a whole host of other conditions and things needs that people would have to have hormones. Hormones are not new and they weren't invented for trans people. We are taking the same hormones that everyone else is prescribed. >> Okay? >> They do the same things to us. And so if hormones or is if estrogen causes you to become a school shooter, then it's not just, you know, trans people that would be doing this. You know what I mean? And the evidence, but all that aside, we don't even have actual evidence that there's a correlation between being trans and school shootings. There are different people who have the profile is different for a lot of people. Most of the school shooters or most of the shooters period are men generally and most of them are white men >> and heterosexual non-trans. But there is the exception to every single rule and there that means that there might be trans people who are violent. But I bet that what that's what all the school shooters have in common. It's not that they're all trans because we know that they're not all trans. I know that people are trying to kind of se secret secretly seep that into our mind now. Every school shooter that everyone that's ever had a gun has been trans. I know that's what they're trying to hypnotize us into thinking, but that's not true. They're ignoring the school shooting that happened today. They're ignoring the one that happened yesterday because one happens every single a mass shooting happens every single day in our country and they are usually white straight men. But that aside, what any what one trans person who's allegedly trans, because we don't know, we haven't heard from them. I've not heard them say they're trans. I haven't heard anything out of their mouth. But what one person who might be trans and we're using trans loosely because if you look at a picture of them, they haven't done a medical transition. So, what is it that what how are we classifying them as trans? But that's a different conversation because I don't know exactly which one you're talking about. um what one school shooter who might be trans has in common with all the other school shooters is more likely, you know, maybe there's a mental health issue, >> mental health, >> access to guns, >> mental health, >> but it's not just it's not just mental health and it's not that they're trans. And I want I want to be really clear when we talk about the mental health of trans people, of LGBT people, a lot of these statistics are are suddenly recognized by people who are anti-trans without understanding the cause. And the cause of these mental health issues for many people uh is their environment. I'm talking about whether they're trans or not. the a lot of times the environment has a lot to do with the situation that a person is in mentally and that needs to be taken into consideration. Now when it comes to cisgender or sorry trans people and any mental health complications that they they may have it is their it's important to look at their surroundings. I didn't talk about this and I don't talk about this often but as a the bullying that I experienced every single day had an impact on me. I did attempt suicide. >> I was not successful. >> It's okay. But it's that's not because I was I came out of my mom's womb saying I need to kill myself. >> It was because I was experiencing I was like I would rather hurt myself than go to school and experience more beating, more teasing, all of these things from >> first grade all the way through high school. And so I mean how many years is that? That's a lot. And so I, you know, that is something that's, it's really important to to um pay attention to that and consider that, which means you have to listen to the trans person in question and understand more about them rather than profiling them based on what you think. Because the the therapies that doctors use to treat trans people in the way that they treat them, it really is it's not about making someone female or making someone male because those are sex characteristics, right? That you know more reproductive and clinical. We're talking about making someone feel more um at ease in their body and also if they want someone who if they want passes through life without being teased and without being sort of like targeted and otherred. And that is sort of the same thing that they have in mind when they go to treat a teenage boy who has gynecomastia which is boobs you know overdeveloped breast tissue for a boy can be a huge sense source of teasing and bullying he may be suicidal as well. So what do we do? We take him to the doctor with his parents and we give him the same thing that we would give to a trans person if they were wanting to stop breast development. if they were wanting to, you know, for the girl, for the young girl who's uh experiencing early puberty, stop breast development, she may get a breast reduction if she's of a of like a teenage usually around teenage uh age is when a girl may get breast reduction. She may be eligible for it if her breasts are too big. If they're causing her back pain, if they're if she's being overly sexualized, then that could be an option. These are the same surgeries and procedures that the doc the doctor who you would take her to to have a breast reduction to have to have the young man have a breast reduction or get those are the same exact therapies and procedures and surgeries that a do that that doctor would do on a trans person. And so I've spoken to many surgeons and they say we don't like ask them if if somebody comes in and says they want a breast augmentation to get larger breasts. We just look at whether or not they are a good candidate for that and they can handle that in a healthy way, if their body will be able to carry it and what size or whatever that's going to be. We don't ask them if they're trans or not. And so it's that's that's it's the same exact procedure. Like if I go to get um you know a soda out of the soda machine, the soda machine doesn't ask me if I'm trans to get a soda machine. I'm getting the same soda that you're getting. I know that's a weird example, but like it's the same service. You just get just go and get the service. >> Yeah. >> I mean, Mom, I think you two are >> You taught me a lot. Thank you. Something that you kind of always miss, mom, is like you're bringing up a this shooter was trans and and like Peppermint's saying, maybe, maybe not. We don't know. Nobody's really gotten the details on whatever the specific story is you're saying, but you have to look at the source that you're getting that news from and what is the motivation for that story. >> You always rip me on my sources. >> Well, I think that your fear like you have this irrational fear of transgender people because you don't understand it and all you were fed >> fear. I don't fear them. I just don't have knowledge or understand it. That is correct. >> But but I do think prior to this conversation, prior to I think this conversation today, >> certainly your attitude about trans people was quite different in a lot of our other podcasts. And I think that that is like this this bullying, this this call for them to not exist is 100% because Donald Trump and his administration are feeding you this fear that like they're chopping our kids up in school and there's an agenda and all this [ __ ] but that's simply not true. And as I think now that you've met Peppermint, you can kind of conceptualize that like trans people are just [ __ ] people, dude. >> They're just out here living. like we all want bodily autonomy. We all want, you know, to call our own shots. >> And she has beautifully articulated, she has beautifully articulated that there is no difference between >> a transgender kid and a cishat kid. Like, we're all just [ __ ] out here living. And so, I think that you needed to talk to her today because I think that this has maybe changed your mind quite a bit. >> Yes, I've enjoyed it. I love peppermint. Oh, you're so sweet. I do want to say we'll go back to one thing you said, mom. Uh where uh you mentioned about kids making the choice and you know the they're they're not really choosing much at that age at any at a young age. And right the the classification um when we hear people talk about like youth when they say trans youth the what pops in our head is like two year olds. But a lot of times, especially since they've raised the age in many states to qualify as youth or adult um from 18 to 19 with regards to transgender issues, uh a lot of times we're talking about 16, 17, 18, 19 year olds when it comes to any type of medical intervention. And usually surgery is saved even before the Trump administration before like 10 years ago. What was required in order to be trans was first a year at least a year of therapy with a with a psychiatrist. >> A year of living presenting in the sort of gender that you want to. So wearing the clothing that you would eventually want to always wear for a year living in that. Those were the two prerequisites. then was um moving to hormones and and puberty and blockers, testosterone blockers. They call them puberty blockers for people who are under 18 or under 16. And then they you call them just testosterone blockers for people who are obviously adults. Uh but they're the same exact medications maybe in different dosages. And but this is something that is prescribed alongside their with from their doctor with their parents and it it's the same thing that their class might mates might be receiving for that early puberty or that overgrown breast tissue or whatever they're getting. Now that usually doesn't happen in >> Can I ask one quick question? Yeah. >> Like in California, can children transition without a parent now at a certain age where the parent has >> children? >> What? >> What do you mean by children? Like what age? >> Like um 16. I mean, see this is I somewhere I read this that they don't even need um parents now along the way to transition. >> And what do you mean by transition? I'm going to answer your question, but I'm curious what you mean by transition. >> Medically. medically. >> Well, uh >> medically transition it could be more than several things. I think one thing that where people's minds go who are not as experienced with trans folks is to surgery first. >> Is that where your mind is going? >> Yes, that's where my mind's going. >> So, no. Uh a doctor, whether you had a parent with you or not, a doctor would usually not Now, I don't know every single doctor in the country. I've not talked to every single doctor in the country, but doctors who are board certified and qualified. I mean, listen, my landlord might say, "God, the economy is bad. Let me try to go do some like I don't you know, like people get people do all kinds of stuff, right?" So, we're not about that, >> right? We're talking about qualified, certified, accredited, board certified medical professionals who gak. >> They are not operating on young kids at all. For the most part, in general, to get medications, you have to be 16 or older. To get surgeries, you have to be 18 or older. In general, now obviously until now, 18-year-olds didn't need their their that's considered a legal adult. So, no, they did that is someone who didn't need their parents' permission to get medical procedures as an 18-year-old, but they're still under 25, right? So, their health insurance might treat them differently. So, it is it's not a yes or no answer necessarily for everything. Um, and if that person has, what if they're a trans person who does have an early p puberty and they it's a young assigned female at birth person who doesn't want to be an adult with breasts but also is now >> 12 years old and they're getting their breasts early, you know, then they may be eligible for some type of blocker that would allow them to not develop breasts, which is the same thing that we would have given to the 12-year-old who wasn't >> right back. Oh my god. Oh. >> Oh god. Our dad. Okay. I'm sorry. >> Yelling at her from the background. Um I'm yelling. >> Well, while while she's gone, I have a question for you, Peppermint. >> Mhm. >> Do you think the current or the most recent assassination attempt was real? >> I can't. >> Come on. You know about reality TV. >> Listen, no, I don't. I mean, I have very little ev I can't I can't even figure it out. There's very little little evidence that that's convincing me that it was real or effective. Uh I mean, if some I know that they we are saying that people were shot, but like who was shot and where where did the bullet holes go and >> yeah, >> was there more than one shoot shot? Because I thought on the tape on the first tape it sounded like there was more than one, but it sounded like they were outside of the room. And so I just don't know how this shooting in another area is now considered an attempt on Trump. Now it is a threat to the president if they're in the building and someone's brandishing a gun. I'll give you that. >> But if they got taken down and they were nowhere near the biggest danger is to everyone else in the in the area, you know, like the people that are around them, the people that are closest to them. >> And it seems like the focus has gone off of the journalists. the focus just seems to constantly go off the journalists in with this situation where that was most of the people that were there the the majority of the pe the room was full of people who were journalists and it I I don't know how the room was set up but if it was a typical banquet set up that means there was the door the room full of journalists as a buffer and then Trump all the way in the back honey if that journalist if that shooter had shot up everybody >> it would have been an hour before Trump would have gotten shot you know what I mean like fine This is, for what it's worth, this is my two cents on it. The things that make me extremely suspicious are the video of that guy supposedly running through the lobby. The picture of that guy face on the carpet. That [ __ ] was out within seconds of the event. No investigation. >> Yeah. No. Yeah. Shirt was off. No crime scene. It was like this is the guy. We got him. Everything's this. >> This is kind of what I think is happening. I could be wrong in this. If these assassination attempts are like real, I think there might be some cadre within the Trump administration or the FBI or the CIA actively targeting people that they think they can like >> radicalize to try and do the assassination because I think the Republicans, >> I think they want to assassinate Trump eventually. If they want to maintain control in politics, he cannot die in his bed at night. He must die a martyr so that they can use MAGA as their they can like take it over basically. >> Let's go. >> Well, I know that one thing is gonna Oh, go ahead, Mom. >> The Jimmy Kimmel joke. Did you all think that was funny? >> Yes. >> Peppermint. >> I don't think I I heard the Jimmy Kimmel joke. So, I heard it delivered by somebody who was not funny. I didn't see the video. Was there a video or was it a tweet of Jimmy? It was part of his monologue from like two nights before. >> I didn't hear him deliver it. I probably would have laughed if I'd heard him deliver it, but it was it was uh you know delivered by some news anchor. It wasn't anything. They say it's funny. You know what I mean? Um but uh I will tell you that it's it's wild because there's several reasons to question or think that Trump in his age might not live for another 10 years. You know what I mean? Like he is >> of a certain age. >> He's old. You can say >> he's old. He's old as [ __ ] Yeah. >> Yeah. So him So So his wife who is not that age, >> right? >> I'm sure it's crossed her mind once or twice that she's going to outlive him. >> Yes. >> And that's just a reality. Do you know what I mean? >> But you're talking about you're talking about the joke he made to try to clean up the first joke he said that she had the glow of a widow. >> Anid joke. Yeah, that was his joke. >> Yeah, his first joke. Trump is old as [ __ ] and it's very clear that he's on his way out. It had nothing to do with the assassination attempt. >> I think it had everything to do with it. And shame on all three of you. Boo boo. >> It happened before the assassination attempt. Is he a [ __ ] psychic? >> Yeah. >> No, this was afterwards. >> No, it wasn't. >> No, the joke was delivered before. >> Yeah. >> Oh, it was still bad. I don't care if it was before or after. It was pretty bad. >> Well, girl, then then that don't change that. Well, how's that change something, girl? Come on, girl. That ain't right. >> No, >> you know that ain't right, girl. You know you can't do that, girl. >> Yes, I just did it. Yes, I just did it. >> Well, >> oh my god. >> Okay. Okay. But I >> Caroline Levette also before the dinner said, "Trump's gonna have a lot of shots come out of this. He's gonna have to >> What do you think about that?" And we well that was not talking about a gunshot. That was talking about Trump was gonna come out with some zingers on people at that time. Then >> why was Jimmy Kimmel talking about a gunshot? >> You think the glow this mentioning the glow of a widow >> who from Jimmy Kimmel that is not in reference to Trump's age and the fact that he's definitely going to die sooner than most of us are going to uh had nothing to do with that >> but and had everything to do with a shooting that hadn't yet happened. But >> I can take I can take jokes. I can take jokes. I can take jokes about me. We've even got this guy named Joel something that's doing jokes on us. But when it turns more toward death or sexual stuff, forget it. That's not right. >> What? It's not my taste. It's not my taste. And to be honest with you, I just wanted to make it through the weekend without being blamed for this attempted shooting because they're blaming mom. You already did it. Blaming trans people. Yeah, >> I can guarantee you they're going to try to they're going to use the fact that he once looked at gay porn and say, "Well, he's >> I never even Now, guess what? I'll be honest. I never read anything about that. I've read that she was very, very educated, a very good man. He was a teacher. That's all I've read. He had his manifesto." >> Girl, they're gonna wait. They're gonna figure it out. >> Oh, you think they're gonna throw something out there? >> I think they did it with the guy. They did it with Charlie Kirk. Oh, was it Charlie Kirk or was it the Butler, Pennsylvania guy? >> It was Charlie. >> It was both with Charlie. The Charlie Kirk dude, you know, was texting his trans girlfriend or something, right? >> Yeah. Texting his girlfriend that they're claiming he's trans and that they're furries and all this [ __ ] and he's giving her the great Gatsby. >> I shouldn't have started. We shouldn't have gone down this. >> All right. No, we I I brought up the assassination attempt. My apologies. Um, we can we can uh table that. Let me just say thank you Peppermint so much for doing this. >> This is beyond um an honor for me personally given your status in reality television history >> repertoire. >> But uh I really can't thank you enough for giving us your time and having this conversation with my mom who I think it might have helped. >> Yes, it has. >> I like peppermint. >> Progress maybe has been made here. This is fantastic. Um, but please >> tell please tell everybody where they can check out any of your stuff that you want them to check out. >> They can check me out on socials on all socials, Peppermint 247, and they can keep their eyes peeled on Netflix for season three, well, season one and season two first of Survival of the Thest, which is a halfhour comedy that I'm on. Uh, and we're getting ready to release season 3 on Netflix this summer. >> Fantastic. >> That's awesome. >> in RU. That's that's the best place to be in my opinion if you're in any kind of television. So, congratulations on that. Um, and thank you everybody for joining us. Before we go, we always like to do something on this show despite our political differences, our ideological differences. Haley, thank you for being here today. I know Wednesday is hard for you to make. I love you. Mom, thank you for being here for this uh conversation. I know you're going through a lot right now with Dad. I love you, too. And Peppermint, I sincerely cannot thank you enough for doing this. I love you from the bottom of my heart. >> Mom, I love you. >> Chad, I love you. Peppermint, thank you so much. I love you as well. Um, I'm still pissed that you got thrown out of Traders so early. Uh, yeah. Really sorry about that. I wanted to see it in the distance. >> Chad, I love you. Haley, I love you. Peppermint, I love you. Thank you for being on the show. >> Chad, Haley, Mom, I love you so much. Thank you very much for having me.