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Welcome to the Necessary Conversation, a special Friday episode with us today is a fantastic guest. You probably have seen him across the internet. Dr. Steve Hassan is with us. Thank you for joining us.
it right. I love you already. [laughter] Mispronounces it. Oh, I've I've seen you say it in your own videos. So, I just I did what you did.
your introduction. Um so, Steve, you for those who don't know, maybe you could just fill us in a little bit on your backstory, how you got into exploring cults, etc., etc., your own experience with them in your youth.
Sure. Yeah, and I before I get into my story, I just want to compliment you all as a family to want to talk together and actually share it with other people. Uh and I'm sorry, uh Mary Lou, your husband is, you know, not able to join us today. I'm already open to another one when he's up for it.
Okay. Okay. So, um I just want to say I'm a love guy. Um and I'm I'm I'm a mental health professional. I I I'm I've been trained by some of the top people and um but how I got interested in cults and brainwashing and mind control was essentially I was recruited as a college student in 1974 when I was 19 years old at Queens College in New York City. I was a creative writing major. I should back up and just say I'm the youngest of three. I have two older sisters. My dad uh had a hardware store that he took over from his father but he was a classically
trained musician. Wow. violin who then became a jazz trumpet in his rebellion. Uh and played trumpet in World War II. When he came out, fell in love with my mom and said, "I don't want to live the life of a musician cuz we want to have a family and I want to be a family guy." But as soon as I graduated high school and my sisters got married early, he's like, "Steve, you want the hardware store?" I'm like, "No, Dad. I'm
[laughter] No, thanks. And he he sold it and he went back to violin. And He was in four different um orchestras and quartets. My mom was eighth grade art teacher
Okay. in Brooklyn. So, a very artistic, musical family and when she retired, she picked up the viola cuz she said, "I'll be damned if you're off practicing with other people all the time."
[laughter] And not with me, yeah. viola. But anyway, going back to my story, I I was I was a bookworm. I I played basketball, but I was shy. I worked as a banquet waiter at the Holiday Inn in Hempstead, Long Island while I was going to college to make money for gas and whatever. My girlfriend dumped me. I was like really blue. I was starting the spring semester of my upper junior year and three smiling women "Can we sit at your table?" the cafeteria.
And I was like, "This is my lucky day" in my head um cuz they were all cute and I said, "Are you students?" "Yes, we are." And I I don't know why, but I said, "Are you part of some religious group?" "Oh, no, not at all. We're just students." So, two big lies. Long story short, they were recruiters for the Moonies.
Oh, my god. their mass weddings of thousands of men and lines and he'd go, "You and you, you and you." Yes. would get married.
So, for those who don't know, can you explain what the Moonies were? The Moonies are still very active, in fact, even though the leader died in 2012, they are
Wow. a billion-dollar-plus group. They own the Washington Times newspaper empire and two of their sons are in Pennsylvania. One has a gun cult uh called the Rod of Iron Ministries.org. Uh his name is Shawn Moon and his brother, Justin, owns a factory making assault rifles and pistols, etc.
And they've been going around, basically, recruiting people for civil war in the United States. Oh, goodness. And, very briefly, they were recently dissolved in Japan because they were they were found to be the orchestrators of a lot of political dirty stuff and and they were also hated by Japan because they had this spiritual sales fraud where they would look at newspapers, at obituaries, and look up people's address, knock on their door, and say, "Your deceased husband in prayer told me to come here because he's stuck in a low level in the spirit world and he wants you to go to your bank and take $50,000
Oh, wow. bus so we can do a liberation ceremony. And they made a billion dollars off of 35,000 people. I didn't know they were still active, but you were in that cult in the '70s.
They are very active internationally and I've written a book called Combating Cult Mind Control that first came out in 1988. I bought the rights back in 2014 and I've updated it.
How many years were you in that cult? I got sucked in and fortunately I was only two and a half years. Because well, first of all, I was selected as a leader and I was groomed to help run the world and Moon was saying God hates democracy. We need a theocracy to rule the world. We have to infiltrate the government. And I was a right-wing fascist, total believer.
Wow. sleeping three to four hours a night and uh lying to the public and lying to recruit people and indoctrinating them. I was made assistant director at the national headquarters. And but I fell asleep uh at the wheel of a fundraising van. They were doing deceptive fundraising saying they were raising funds for Christian youth programs. They're not Christians. They think Moon
No. Most 10 times greater than Jesus Christ. Oh, wow. never have gone to the cross and he should have gotten married and had seven children. I I don't want to spend too much more time, but just to say I fell asleep. I nearly died in a van crash thanks to the emergency techs. They pried me out of the wreckage before it blew up.
Wow. Beltway. And I spent 2 weeks in the hospital, but I was away from the group sleeping for 2 weeks. I was sleeping 3 to 4 hours every night. And it was in that period that I called my sister Thea. I have two sisters. I was always close with her. And I hadn't talked to her in over a year. I was told to cut off from my satanic family.
Wow. her I was in the hospital. I was still a fanatic, but I I was lonely and I I was in pain and she said, "You have a nephew you haven't met. Come come and visit. I'll take care of you." And and and and I said, "I'm a leader, so I might get permission, but you can't tell the parents or Stephy because they're Satan." Because they've said I was in a cult and I've been brainwashed.
And she agreed and thank God she did tell my Wow. ex-members story. And they did an intervention with me and the bottom line was my father cried and said, "How would you feel if it was your son who met a controversial group and he dropped out of college, quit his job, cut off from the family? How would you feel?" And I'm like and I the the tears is what made me step into his shoes and I'm like, "I'd feel like you. I'd want to help him."
But I said, "I'm not in a cult. I'm not brainwashed. They know exactly what I I I believe and I'm doing God's will." And he said, "Just listen to these people for 5 days with an open mind. Don't try to run away." And I I crutches, by the way, so I couldn't run. And I couldn't fight. Like
[laughter] from my groin to my toes, I was in a white cast. Jeez. Dang. He I I He said, "Just listen, and if you want to go back at the end, I'll drive you there myself, but at least your mother and I will be will be able to sleep at night knowing we did the responsible thing." So, for me, the way my Moony had heard that was this is a test of my faith. I'm going to show them I am not a brainwashed. I am not in a cult.
And so, I met the ex-members, one of whom was a woman I had recruited personally into the group who had left. Her name was Gladys, and I have a interview with her and another one of the team who She became a social worker, he became a psychiatrist. But, the bottom line was they didn't hit me, they didn't They weren't mean. They were fine. I had been programmed to believe if you leave the group, you're you know, you're going to Satan, and
May I ask one question? Were there Were there any drugs involved? Not not at all. Really? Not at all. We We lived on [laughter] ginseng tea. The Moony's have a ginseng tea, which is a very high stimulant drink, and that was one of the fundraising things. But, no.
No drugs. So, but the key thing to get to the cut to the chase was I learned about Chinese communist brainwashing from a 1961 book by Robert J. Lifton called Thought Reform and the Psychology of Totalism. And in chapter 22, he outlined eight criteria that environment can be judged as a brainwashing environment. This is based on Mao's atheist political cult.
Okay. And we went through all eight and the Moonies did all eight. Mhm. And I'm like, I don't understand we're God, they're Satan. But we do the same criteria of Chinese communist brainwashing.
Mhm. Still wasn't I still wasn't out. I was still trying to rationalize and justify it cuz I was fanatical. Um and I should say Moon held me up as the model member. That's why they promoted me cuz I did whatever I was told and more. You know, and I was just really a true believer. So anyway, um the thing that got me thinking and it's a technique I've used ever since was on the last day and I knew it was the last day I was going back to the family.
They handed me one of Moon's own speeches that I recognized and they just handed it to me and said, "Read this and tell us what you think, Steve." So it was a question. And I'm reading from this booklet from the Moonies where he's he's talking to congressmen and senators and how he's saying he's so surprised anyone could believe that he, Reverend Moon, a Korean, could brainwash Americans because he respects and loves Americans so much and he's surprised at these accusations.
And I had the first negative thought in two and a half years. I thought, "What a liar." Cuz I had been with him at least a hundred times in person where he was tell saying how terrible Americans were, how the Koreans were the master race, and how our brains were so dirty that needed to be washed, and and I just knew it was a lie, but the minute I said "What a liar." Then I said, "Then he can't be the Messiah. He can't be a man of God.
And I can't trust him." So, I mean, that to me is like fascinating. For you, the moment that you have articulated here, at the very least, was a recognition that this person that you have trusted with all of these various things that he said is lying to you, at least in the pamphlet you're reading. And so, that becomes the thing that kind of unravels the whole deal. What else is he lying about? How much of any of this is true? And maybe what these other people now are telling me about the eight steps of building a an environment that is conducive to brainwashing, maybe that is actually the
truth. Now, Right. Mom, with Trump, you have acknowledged Before we go on, I just want a couple more points. All right. So, my parents, my friends, people I tried to recruit, and I was a lecturer opposite the New York City Library at a very expensive suite. People would be asked to come in, and every People would say, "You're in a cult. You're being brainwashed." And the more they tried to attack the group, or call it a cult, or say I was brainwashed, the stronger I became as a believer.
So, the what they were their intentions may have been good to try to get me out, but their technique was counterproductive. It it would it made me feel persecuted, and I had to dig in deeper. So, I just want to make that parallel point.
Yeah. And I'm sure that's also a part of the doctrine of any cult, as well, is saying people will persecute you for these beliefs because our beliefs are the the one truth.
They're good, evil, etc. So, there are patterns. But, what I want to say before we get into a dialogue and I want to talk with your mom and answer your questions, Mary and especially.
[snorts] So, what happened was I felt like I was in a dark room and someone opened the the blinds and the sun came in. I mean, it really felt like that. It was like there's a world out there. Like the Moonie reality wasn't the real thing. So, that was one. Another feeling I had was I was at the top of a skyscraper and I was falling. Like I had been part of the chosen elite who was doing God's will on Earth and we were going to establish the Garden of Eden on Earth and now it was a lie.
And I was like [snorts] now what do I do? I mean, seriously, I was so uh confused, ashamed, embarrassed. The other thing I want to then add is say later, I remember a thousand or more times where I was told to lie to the members, I was told to lie to the public, but it never entered my Moonie head as a lie. It was It was heavenly deception because Satan ruled the world and we're trying to save all these people. So, we're not lying.
Yeah. Just doing a reverse of what Satan did to Adam and Eve. So, in my twisted ideology right? But, but what I'm next want to say is that the real me, uh that was 19 years of real life and values, like don't lie, don't do to other people what you don't want done to you and things like that and creativity was the most important thing. That's why I wrote poetry, and I read books, and I wanted to be a a professor.
The real me was always there, but this Moonie me got created. And the Moonie me kept saying, "He's evil. He's from Satan's lineage. Your parents, your family, they're they're all from evil. Don't listen." I was taught thought stopping. I was taught prayer. I had phobias. I was taken to see the Exorcist movie, and and Moon said, "God made this movie, and it's a prophecy of what will happen if you leave the Unification Church."
Holy Literally. I was there. I was a few feet away from him when he said it. So, what I'm trying to say is the real me was there, but the the cult me was in this environment. You know, back then there was no cell phones. Now we have social media. This is the new bubble of of of how our minds can get bent by the information in the media that we expose ourselves to.
One more point, and then I'll shut up for [laughter] 2 minutes. Okay. Um as you can tell, I'm very passionate about this. Yeah.
What you've been doing is so important. I've been encouraging people to talk to their family and friends who have been involved with Trump and MAGA, and have respectful, loving, res- you know, communications, and ask questions, and listen to the answers, and engage them to think with with information as opposed to trying to push it on people.
Mhm. The last thing I want to say before I I shut up for a minute is that after I I got out in the sense of wait a minute, it's not the truth. I'm not this group is evil. I was approached by a congressional subcommittee investigation into the Korean CIA in the United States, so I became a whistleblower.
Oh, wow. But then I reached out to the guy who wrote the book, the seminal book on brainwashing, and I called him up and I said your book saved my life and he was like, which book? And it's like
[laughter] He said, that old book? Cuz he had written many more books since then. Very famous psychiatrist. He just passed away at 99. Um So, he said, come and talk with me. And so, I'm I'm talking to this Yale psychiatrist, this eminent and I'm telling him how the Moonies recruited me and how I recruited and indoctrinated people. He said, you know, I just studied this secondhand, but they did it to you and you did it to other people and what you described is so much more sophisticated than what the Chinese were doing in the '50s. You need to study psychology and explain it to people like me.
And I'm sitting there with this cast on my leg looking at this guy with a wall full of hardcover books telling me I know more than he knows about something cuz I was ashamed, embarrassed, you know, college dropout Moonie.
Yeah. Right? So, now you're meeting me 50 years later. Wow. Quite a story. 50 years later I learned about all kinds of stuff and trafficking and Epstein, sex trafficking, labor trafficking, political cults, multi-level marketing cults. So, and I've done a paradigm of how to evaluate what's a healthy cult where you have informed consent in your conscience and critical faculties and you can read information and process it all the way to this dissociative disorder.
But that's what I was describing, the real me and the cult me. Uh and so I have something called the influence continuum. People can download this for free on my website freedom of mind. Ethical influence on ethical authoritarian influence. And my model is called the bite model of authoritarian control, behavior control, information control, thought control, and emotional control to make a pseudo identity that's dependent and obedient.
So that's my model. That's what I did my doctoral work on. So now I've done my intro [laughter] Okay. Why why why do I want people to lovingly talk to family members and friends and engage them in a way that's going to work? It's because my family rescued me.
Mhm. Getting emotional. I just want to pass it forward. There are too many people and you love each other. I've listened to your podcasts and Mary Lou, you touched me so many times when I watched this last last episode and and I just want love, you know, and not who's right or who's wrong, but love and respect and kindness and goodness and love of you know, and that's
episode was a very hard one for me. But like you said, if if I would pass and go to heaven tomorrow, um I'm I'm not in a cult. I love our America. I love the United States. Donald Trump is my president. And see, they're both rolling their eyes going, "Oh my gosh, she's crazy. She's insane."
Well, I've I've listened to them interacting with you, and it's difficult because in this context they lovingly have been trying to persuade you of their model of reality based on their experiences and their facts. I'm [snorts] biased. I wrote a book, Mary Lou, called The Cult of Trump.
Okay. Okay. I wrote it Um And so, George Conway wrote the forward to the re-release in 2024 talking about the GOP, who he loves loved, has turned into where everyone's doing whatever he's saying blindly and obediently.
Okay, Mom. So, listen. So, listen. He's been doing this a long time, literally escaped a cult, wrote a book that is titled what?
The Cult of Trump. The Cult of Trump, okay? So, are we going to believe the professional And then this is my second book, How to Help Loved Ones Leave Controlling People, Cults, and Beliefs. But the method Hayley, that I'm recommending is
It's It's going to be lost on me because, [laughter] you know, So, then let me She does Ma- Maga is a cult. It's a cult.
But let me do the talking. Let me just If I may, I just want to bring up one thing that was even said here. You were talking about, uh, Steve, that you would have to lie in service of the cult, and you were giving the explanation that it was
I didn't think it was lying. Right. Divine deception or heavenly deception, whatever you call it, right? Deception is what the Moonies call it. Different cults have different language, but same principle.
it's basically giving uh the okay to do behaviors that outside the cult are deemed bad, like lying or whatever. Trump mom literally is doing this with the small price to pay. That phrase is the justification of an action that you otherwise would see as something bad. So, when he's saying uh gas prices are up, prices are up or over, whether or not you think he was advocating for the destruction of Los Angeles and San Diego, that's another kind of topic, but he's telling you it's a small price to pay. He's trying to allay your fears or any inclination that you might have.
you, Chad. I know this is your podcast. please, please, please. You're a guest. But trying to argue the way you're arguing is counterproductive to what works.
All right. I heard your mom this last episode saying this is really hard. Mhm. Have some kindness. I'm really struggling with, you know, let them take out San Diego and LA. And Chad's going, "But I live in LA, mom." [laughter] You know, and like, "Of course I don't want you to die, my loving son." So, I I would love it to just ask Haley and you to let me talk with your mom.
Please. Put as uh Dark Lord Allen coming, or as the traders would say. me? The floor Because last week when we did talk about that, and I I did say that, why would I want the city where my son's blown up or whatever, and then Haley's like, "You're in a cult. You're in a cult." She just keeps harder and harder on me.
what doesn't work. But when we're not talking with her now, we're talking about Okay. [laughter] Okay. me too. Yeah, please. Go ahead. Go ahead.
So, I want you to just hear me. I I think you're a wonderful person. I think you're a big-hearted. I think you love your children. You love your country. I've had a great experiences as an American. I feel blessed. I'm 72 years old and I I've traveled the world. I've I I I I I love arts and music and I love I love intelligent people who are creative. I love listening to different ideas.
And I want to just share that I think that being able to develop a bigger perspective, you know, to step into other people's shoes and look at the world from their doesn't mean you give up your own perspective, but it might widen things. And I don't believe in black and white all or nothing thinking. I think there's room to have a diversity of a of of opinions and experiences.
And so in my work and what I coach my families to to do is to engage lovingly and respectfully and ask questions that
at me? provoke [laughter] reality testing. That prov you know, that helps you step into other shoes, but not out of force or pressure, but because you care and you're an intelligent woman. You love your country. You know, when I heard you say if if Ghislaine Maxwell gets pardoned, I'm out. If he tries to run a third time, I'm out. You already have lines
Yes, I do. established in your mind. Fantastic. Yes. But then she don't then she took a step back and said, "Well, I'd vote for him a third time."
No, I I [laughter] he's not going to run a third time, so there's no way I would vote for him a third time.
That's a fact. [laughter] He won't run. Haley. No, he won't run. Yeah. Haley. Yeah. [laughter] Wouldn't you love for your mom and dad to expand their point of view?
Of course. And adopt a different perspective? [laughter] Yeah. So, this is my first time in a recording talking to someone who's a devoted who has been a devoted Trump believer.
Okay. Let me do my thing. You can [laughter] Let him cook. Let him cook. All right. try. But it's going to but I know that that the conditions are not like a normal thing. Normally, to be in person.
thing Here's one thing I don't understand about my son and my daughter, which I understand. And I've tried to ask them and they just they don't feel. Remember we you talked emotional, we talked about feelings. The day that I had to attend my my father's funeral and then my father-in-law's, we were my husband and I we were handed the flags because my father and my father-in-law were in the military.
That feeling is overwhelming. It's so much pride for my country, so much pride that they served for our country. Chad and Haley don't understand that. They will never get that and they've told me that.
going to interrupt you, dear, with my Yes. So, I'm trained as a family therapist. I'm not doing therapy. This is We're just talking.
Okay. of the rules is you never tell other people what they're feeling or telling other people what they think, but you speak from your own experience about your own thoughts and your feelings. But you're have access to someone who spent 50 to 2 and 1/2 years as an expert in this topic. I'm a cult expert on on social media.
Okay. I wrote this book with Simon and Schuster, became a New York Times bestseller. Ask me questions. Am I in a cult? Great question. I would ask you, what's your understanding of what a cult is?
I believe I am not in a cult. I But what's your understanding me is what you were in, where you only slept 3 hours at night, you recruited other people. I don't do that. I sleep my 9 hours at night quite well, well with a little bit of ambient help. Uh so I sleep at night. I don't really recruit other people um to be Republicans. I mean, I vote the way I want. I talk to people about it, but I don't say, "Hey, you need to vote this way."
Okay. My Some of my friends, of course, are Republicans. Mhm. Um I have a lot of friends who are Republicans, by the way.
Let me be clear. I say there are cults from here to here. Okay. If you're like a a fanatic fan of a sports team or a celebrity and you buy their merch and you go to their concerts and that you you know, you spend time on on discussion groups, it's a culture. It's a It's a thing.
Okay. it's not authoritarian. It's not asking for dependence or obedience. It's could say I'm in a thing. I'm in a thing. But [laughter] my point is when I when I agreed to do a book with this title, I first said I'm not going to I don't do political books. And secondly, it's going to turn off everybody with a red hat.
Okay. as a pejorative thing. And that's not how I think about it. tell you this. Chad has that book. If he'll give me the book, I will indulge. I will.
you'll read it. I will to the best copy and I will be happy to sign it for you if you like. love that.
I So kind. I would love that. No, for me this is my life's work. I believe in God, by the way. I do, too.
get too religious, but I am Jewish. Okay. a supporter of Netanyahu and the religious extremists in Israel. I Right. I have a whole lot to say about that. But what I'm trying to say is humans use words and words can work and serve us or they can undercut us.
Okay. And so for me humans who love each other like children and parents, that's more important than words. Of course it is. and love and connection is more important than being right in my experience. In Judaism, we have this phrase called shalom bayit, which means peace in the house. And I I when I first learned this, I said to the my rabbi, I said, you know, isn't truth more important than peace?
And he said, not in Judaism. Hm. I went, He said, "We've been around for all thousands of years and and there are many stories of different rabbis where they go to one member of the family and say, 'You know, he's really sorry. He did He did a terrible thing. He's really ashamed. You know, you should forgive him.' And then go to the other one, 'You know, he's really sorry.'
That that and and and if they come together, that's considered a mitzvah. And in Judaism, it's a not just a good deed, but it's an obligation to have peace. To have love. Shalom means peace and love. It's just like we want peace. You know?
Okay. And the the the great commandments of the three Abrahamic religions, and I didn't think I was going to talk religion at all, but [laughter] I am. Love God with all your heart, mind, strength, and soul, and love your neighbor as you love yourself. A lot of people forget you have to love yourself, too. It's a love commandment, not a fear commandment, not a judgment commandment.
A lot of people think Judaism's about judgment and stuff, and that's not the the religion that I relate to. Mhm. [clears throat] Are there fanatics who think that Netanyahu's the Messiah? And Israel only belongs to them, and so they're trying to kick people off their land?
[clears throat] They do. But they're they're in authoritarian cults, and I make a distinction between authoritarian cults and just cults. But well, I also just want to bring up you mentioned you don't think that MAGA or is a cult or that you're in it because you don't do some of the things that Steve said he did, like recruiting or lying to people or whatever. But, Steve, in your book, you very expertly outline there are tiers of membership in all of these cults. For Oh, there he's got it. He's got [laughter] the the thing. So, you're kind of down in one of those bottom rings where it's like
you're a Most people are here and they don't know what's going on in here. Yeah. Okay. They only know that and there's a another graphic in the book. I don't have a handy thing to hold up. But, um of all of the different influences over Trump and all of the the media circles of how it becomes a silo. And nowadays, we're seeing Do you know about um Peter Thiel, Mary Lou? Do you know
Chad has told me, yes. We've talked about him from time to time on the show, for sure. There's a book I just read this week by Gil Duran called The Nerd Reich about how Peter Thiel and Musk and Bezos and Zuckerberg, they're anti-democracy. They want to create a network state. They want They want the dollar to crash. They want everyone to go on crypto. It's a very important book that people don't understand. They have so much money and so much influence over the media. They're buying up all the media.
And Right. we use information as food. You know, if we don't have accurate information, we can think we're following facts, but we're following propaganda or misinformation or something else. And that's why I say the truth will stand up to scrutiny. But, you have to be open to other perspectives.
Okay. But, you can't force someone to adopt your perspective. And the best way to approach a person is for you to be willing to change your mind. I'm telling you, Mary Lou, I'm open to changing my mind by you. I'm I'm a good listener.
Okay. Tell Tell Tell Tell me how I can help you. You know. Well, I really thought today all three of you would start saying, "Well, you have all these X's." Somebody has even um created a website where I've have said all these X's. I don't know if you have seen it. It's like 40
X means. The X's are specific subjects or things Trump has said where my mom has openly disagreed with him on the show. And she says that's an X. Like uh for example, ice or the war in Iran, these types of things.
I see. So, I have 40 different X's going, okay? And it's on some website that someone brilliantly took everything I said, you know, from the internet, put it on there, and showed all these X's. I really thought today you guys would say all those X's, and then I had to come up with my list
I don't want that. of things that were not X's. This is So, here it is. See that? I was afraid I was going to have to like rebuttal everything today again.
No. No. No. No. No. No. Okay. But I I've never really talked with your son or daughter. I've I've just watched them. I con- I remember messaging you, Chad, I think a year or two ago just going, you know, I wrote a whole book on how to talk to people involved groups [laughter] where they think they know the truth, and how to do it in a way that works. Um but I'm really grateful to have this opportunity because I believe you're a really good person, Mary Lou.
Thank you. I mean it. I I kind of like you, too. I like you. [laughter] You're a sincere believer. I am. And I was a sincere believer, and I was so sure I was willing to meet with other people, hear what they had to say, and think about it, and it worked. And I'm so grateful cuz
Yeah. I I have friends from back in '74, '5, and '6 that are still in the group. Oh, wow. They married off to people. They had kids. Their kids have left the cult and won't talk to their parents. And there's a whole documentary called The Moonies Married by Married in the Cult. It's on Amazon Prime in the UK. If you want an insider, and Moon's illegitimate son with another woman
[laughter] is featured in that. But when I was in, everything was purity culture. Mhm. You know? And this was one of the lies that father wasn't married twice before.
Ah. You know? And I certainly didn't know he had an illegitimate son by another woman raised by one of his generals, Bo Hi Pak.
That That It was a thing. That kind of a thing, I think, that kind of deception is virtually impossible in today's world of technology and media to like keep, you know, secret wives and children and stuff. But I want to ask you this question, Steve. What was Like, what did it feel like to you in that kind of moment of clarity, that moment of kind of final understanding where you're like, "Oh, Maybe I have been in a cult." What was that exact moment like? I know you mentioned like
That exact moment, I remember it vividly. It's called the lightbulb memory. Mhm. Whether or not, because it's so it's so, you know, intense. But I literally thought I felt like I was in a dark room and somebody opens the shades and it's midday and the sun comes in and I'm like Like I can go outside.
Yeah. And like not have to work like World War III is going to happen and any moment and evil spirits are watching trying to invade
Me. at every moment. And I had this sinking feeling like I was losing my anchor. I got I was chosen person, head of a international billion-dollar group and now now who am I and what the hell do I do now with my life?
But was there something I have asked I have asked Jen Haley before, let me think about that. You know, I've not give me space but said, "I will think about that." And Haley's like, "Sure you will. You need to feel that. You need to feel those feelings, you know?"
[laughter] Like last time I was like, "I don't feel good today. This is really getting me." You need to feel that. and I heard you say that and Haley has a lot of anger and Haley, I understand.
Yeah, I don't live your Kumbaya I don't I'm not like [laughter] I'm not like let let everybody No, I don't live that life. I very much have like disdain for certain people, certain groups of
I have And that's how I live. with many folks like yourself, Haley. The question is whether you want to talk with me and interact with me or you want to judge me and just say you freaking Kumbaya and want
[laughter] you know, I don't want anything to do with you, Steve. And I'll say, "Well, when you're ready, you know, you got my number. Let's talk."
No, I'm actually cool with like how I think and how I live life. Um, I very much have hard lines for certain groups of people. Uh, so I don't care to live, you know, like I I don't believe that you should love everyone. I don't believe that everyone deserves forgiveness. Uh, so that
not saying that. Is that what you heard? Me say? You you said that love and I don't and I I I love Well, did I call you an Cuz I didn't say that either.
You No, I I I I was riffing. Forgive me. [laughter] Well, maybe I was riffing as well. Right. The point is for me is that we're living at a time, this is my thing, you'll read about this in the cult of Trump, Mary Lou, of psychological warfare by enemies of America. Russia,
China, I do believe that. And I've studied this stuff, but I also want to tell you I we came a whistleblower for a a house congressional investigation and I learned that my cult was a product of the CIA and the South Korean CIA to stabilize the South Korean dictatorship because North Korea was brainwashing its people. There were two unsuccessful coups in South Korea and they want and and the the the powers that be wanted to stabilize South Korea against Russia and against China.
So they picked a proxy group, the small little religious cult of Sun Myung Moon and they used them to create a front group to basically brainwash dissidents in South Korea to be faithful to South Korea. And it was And And then they were doing arms manufacturing. The Moonies were used in South Korea to make arms to give to third countries. And then when America said, "We're done with Vietnam. We need to get out of there."
These same people said, "Let's bring the Moonies to the US and install them on campuses so we can fight the commies on campus."
Wow. Because it's the commies that are saying we should leave the Vietnam war. Wow. And you should understand, I I grew up post-World War II
Mhm. watching TV shows like Combat and The Longest Day movie, etc. I was a very nationalistic. Mhm. But then as I I got older with the Vietnam war, I was in the last draft lottery to go to Vietnam, actually.
So was my husband. Yeah. I got a high number, so I didn't have to go. But so it touched me very directly, but I got recruited by this proxy cult that was called a religion. Um and so Iran has Hamas proxy group to do its bad deeds. So there's this whole machinations by billionaire people who have their own power agendas. And for those dictators, democracy is a threat to them. They don't want free speech.
They don't want people to They don't want gay rights and trans rights and indigenous rights and women's rights. They want to be in total control. So, for us growing up in America that we love that we went and fought the freaking Nazis
Right. because of their authoritarianism and now we're seeing people in power doing the Sieg Heil and we're seeing and Chad was showing some of the the imagery of Nazism.
Right. And Haley, to your point, you know, I'm horrified. Do I like Nazis? Do I want to hug Nazis? No. Do I think they're in a cult? An authoritarian cult? Absolutely. Would I love to deconvert some Nazis? I've done that already.
Wow. I'll do more. Yeah. Okay. do interview. You can watch my interview with Arno Michaelis who was a neo-Nazi skinhead, had his own band, wrote his own music, recruiting people into hate. And he left. He got out and he's been lecturing and talking and sharing and when I asked him, "So, what were the things that woke you up?" He said, "Well, I I I was working at a place and I was hungry and my boss saw I was hungry. He gave me half a sandwich and the guy was Jewish.
And it was like Yeah, the personal experience. I I think for I went to the McDonald's. There was a black woman and she was smiling and friendly every time I went in to get a burger and fries.
Mhm. And he he it started like and then he had a child and he's like do I want my child to grow up and hate?
Right. And and threatening to beat the crap out of everyone that doesn't agree with me and it it woke him up and he's now like me, an ex-member who's trying to share their direct experience with the world to say, you know, we need each other. We're humans. We are successful because we trust each other to do the right thing, to help each other. And and and and saying that I am horrified as Haley is and your son is at the facts of what is happening right now.
And so I want to do everything in my power to message and this is my message to anyone who's listening to this video. If you cut off contact with your mom, your dad, your uncle, your brother, your sister because they got involved with Trump or MAGA or whatever, it's time to reach out and just say I miss you. Let's, you know, and if they say, "Well, you cursed me out and you didn't invite me to Thanksgiving for 3 years." You apologize. I know a lot of people like, "I'm not going to apologize." But I'm this is my advice. Apologize and just say, "Listen, I still care about you and
let's just work on reestablishing a warm connection, remembering the good days, common ground, and and let's share perspectives. Something is important to you, share it with me, I'll watch it with you, we'll talk about it. Then my turn, I'll share something with you, we'll talk about it because in the end the truth will come out.
Yeah. But let's put family over strangers or social media or Fox News or whatever. It's like, you know, seriously, life's short and and we're not going to live forever and we only have one set of parents. Mine have passed on. You you know, you and you know, kids and we want to have connection. That's what we want.
Yes. I mean, that's primarily what this podcast has has been an attempt to do. that's your intention and that's why I started by saying thank you for being willing to do this.
you for coming on. I I want to ask you one question. This is something when I knew you were coming on that I was very curious about, especially after reading your book. You have some parts in your book where you're talking about how cult leaders will manufacture events that will uh kind of bolster the idea that maybe they are chosen from a god or some divine entity to be the leader of this cult. It It elevates them to a kind of supernatural godhood within their own cult. So, that end, do you personally believe the assassination attempts against Trump are real or do you think
they might be staged for that exact reason? Wow. honest. Yes. We're honest. We're all honest. Yes. lie, by the way. I'm a forensic expert. I I have to tell the truth. People won't trust me if I lie.
So? as it happened, I thought it was staged. Wow. Me too. Wow. as it happened, because I know when there are assassination attempts, Secret Service would never let the president go.
[laughter] Yeah. So not in the professional way of doing it. And then of course the the the the ketchup or whatever it was here and then the white thing and then 2 weeks later there's no scars. All of my doctor friends are like, you know, if you actually have a bullet wound there, it doesn't heal that fast.
Yeah. Plastic surgery. All right. That was But mom's laughing. So what do you think of what he just said? you're asking me honestly, I I I I
Honestly, I I I've thought Honestly, I don't know anymore. And Charlie Kirk, I don't know anymore. You know, I see things. I read things there. Poor Charlie, I love Charlie. I I I don't know about that anymore. The lavalier mic, whether that kid was
not talking about Charlie Kirk. I'm specifically talking about the assassination attempt where he got shot in the ear. He just said he thinks it's fake as Do you still believe it?
He didn't He didn't get shot in the ear. It was Somebody got killed. So it was a real They were real bullets. But
Right. The the the the thing though, Mary Lou, is that I'm willing to change my mind even on this topic, but I need proof. And when I
Right. see an ear that's purportedly nicked by a high-caliber rifle and it's fine 2 weeks later, that doesn't make sense to me. And I I believe in common sense.
Right. So how do you feel? I I might say inside on that one with y'all now. Yes. What? But it's taken me a while.
But Chad, please. I know. I'm sorry. FUN OF ME. NO, I'M NOT MAKING FUN OF YOU. I'M I'M SHOCKED. I'M NOT MAKING fun of you at all.
I'm saying, you know, your mom is such a beautiful soul and she's trying the best she can and I'm letting you know I've been doing this for 50 years. A lot of time. And so if you met me 45 years ago, I'd have I had cowboy boots on. You can watch actually. It might be fun for you to watch Mary Lou, too. In the 90s, I was on the Today Show with the president of the Moonies.
Oh, wow. And there was a woman who had disappeared from NYU into the Moonies and the family, you know, wanted the Today Show to document it and they wanted me on. And I was like Moon says to lie. And I was just like, "Her. Her. Her." You know, get me get me with the president of the Moonies. No, you're not going to pull that crap on the public, you know, I was there. I was higher up than you were.
Um, type of thing. But I've mellowed over the years and I've just, you know, love, peace, kindness and encouraging your mom to take the baby steps that are genuine to her.
Yeah. Where this isn't a win-lose or we were all right, you were wrong. Like we love you. We want to support you. We want to encourage you. We want we want to come together to save America and democracy
Yes. and women's rights. Yes. And and women's right to choose over health care over their own bodies. But you don't believe that, Mom.
Yes, I do, Haley. You always put words in my mouth that You be No, you become agreeable when we have guests, but then we go back to business and you don't believe that anymore.
Haley. That I don't want us all to come together for our country? Haley. That I don't want health care for all? That if somebody is sick
He said women's rights and you don't believe in that. So why would I not believe in women's rights? I want to hold her accountable in these moments that I feel like she's not being truthful.
useful. If you Holding people accountable is not useful. Hang on though. moment, no. It's counterproductive. I just I want to acknowledge one thing that has just happened if I may.
Please. Because you are here, Steve, and I think what my sister is saying is accurate that when we have other people come on the show, Mom, you are more agreeable and you're more willing to like listen and take in new information and stuff. So right now, for the first time ever on the show you just said, "I may agree that the Trump assassination was a staged event."
Haley and I have obviously been telling you that and showing you the videos and all that stuff. But um we have Steve here today. He says it with obviously comes 50 years of an expert opinion and forensics and all the other stuff.
yes. Right. And it it does open your mind up a little bit to it, which I think is a fantastic thing. He laid it out kind of scientific to me better than what you two guys have before.
Great. And that's it's fake, it's fake. No, that's fine. Whatever works. add again, like I want to state another principle, which is we live in the now. The past is done. It's over. The future hasn't happened yet.
Technically. And it when I'm assisting families to learn how to talk to their loved ones, when I'm talking to someone who's a loved one. I don't want to bring up the past where things were not connecting the dots or functional. I want to be present and I want to reinforce and amplify the present and I want to orient to a positive future where there's more love and agreement.
And for me I hear you Haley when you say, I want accountability. I want, you know uh you know, my mom to admit that what I've been saying is true all this time. I don't think that's productive. She may get there. She may not, but right now let's encourage a process of self-reflection and reality testing. She's talking to the guy who wrote the Cult of Trump and said she'd read it. Like for me, that was the the the I that was beyond my expectation for today.
Totally. But that means if you read it, write down questions. Just remember I wrote it eight years ago. I've learned so much more and so many more things have happened, but I have a Substack and I'm about to make it free. No paywall to all my interviews and all my realizations since then.
Okay. But I I continue I literally read this book called The Nurture Myth this week and I knew 80% of it, but it was presented in such a scholarly, journalistically solid way and it's been on the New York Times best-seller list for six weeks and it deserves it. It's shifted my perspective because I didn't know this when I wrote the cult of Trump. So, when you read the cult of Trump, you'll be like, "What happened to the tech billionaires and Musk and taking over Twitter?" It's like cuz it didn't happen yet when I wrote it.
Okay. Well, um Steve, we can't thank you enough for coming on here and having this conversation. My mom will read the book. Maybe we'll have you back on after that to have a conversation about the book.
It's I'm happy. I will give you my contact information, Mary Lou, if you want to talk sooner than that. [laughter] Not online and publicly.
I if it's okay with I think it's okay with Chad and Mary Yeah, of course. for us to interact. Okay. Absolutely. Ask me questions and you know, and I'll I'll be happy to answer, seriously.
Okay. Thank you very much. And and keep your love for America. Keep your love for the people who've given their lives fighting the Nazis.
I will. It's a very important thing because the CIA brought a whole crop load of Nazis here to work on our rockets and all kinds of other stuff and it's documented. I'm not making this stuff up. I interviewed a Boston College, a Catholic theologian who wrote a book um uh His name is Gallagher. What's the name? Nazis in Copley Square. Square. Copley Square's here in Boston.
Uh the the forgotten history of the Christian Front. The Nazis planned a physical coup in 1940 to keep us out of World War II. They had arms. They tried to recruit an American general. Like this is all documented history. And I've interviewed him and there's a whole book on this. The Nazis never left. They've been underground and now they're
running the United States government. And we should be [clears throat] you know, Yeah. aware. Hitler was a malignant narcissist. Sound familiar? And there's a playbook there.
Yeah, for sure. and and and dictators follow each other's playbooks, etc. But to my to my last breath, I will oppose dictators and Nazis and extremists and authoritarians. And I want to stand with the innocents. I want to stand with the immigrants, the women, the children, the people who've been oppressed. I mean, I've been blessed. I grew up in a middle-class family in Queens, you know?
Yeah. I never went hungry other than in the Moonies, where I fasted for 7 days with no food. Twice. Jesus. Oh god. Just water. And many times 3 days. No, but I'm serious. My parents were just loving souls.
Yeah. They were just good, hardworking, middle-class, middle middle-class people. And I grew up 1.3 miles from Donald Trump's childhood home, Mary Lou. Wow. Wow.
The other side of Union Turnpike and St. John's Wow. was where he grew up in a mansion. I had I was in a three-bedroom attached house.
Wow. We could hear the neighbors flush the toilet. Interesting. Wow. Well, uh Steve, thank you very much for coming on. Everybody go check out his Instagram and stuff. It is Dr. Steve Hassan.
Yeah, come to my my YouTube, also. Dr. Steven Hassan, cuz I have a lot of free videos there. Yeah. Check it out. And and uh people are still reading The cult of Trump and saying, "Wow." And
[laughter] And Mom We will see. We will see if it's a wow, wow, wow. Just write down your questions. I will. I will, Steve.
Keep in mind I wrote it 8 years ago. Simon & Schuster let me update it. Okay. Except for an afterword in George Conway's forward.
Sure. It's a bit Hayley, I do love you. Chad, always say at the end of this, speaking of love, we always You're not looking You're not looking at me. You're You're mad at me or something. Look at me.
I am looking right at you. [laughter] I love you, Chad. Thank you, Steve. I love you. I love you, Mom. I love you, Hayley.
I appreciate the opportunity. Thank you, Chad. Thank you, Hayley. Yeah, I know. Thank you so much for coming on. Thank you, Mary Lou, and
You're welcome. We'll do it again. Let's Let's try to get pleasure and enjoy the journey too. [laughter] Okay. Not for me. In fact, I'm going to take Mom's ass to the exorcist after this. All right?
[laughter] Hayley, scared the crap out of me. I'm Jewish. I didn't believe in Satan or demons. Hayley, I mean, seriously, and I'm sitting there that 2 hours later they bust us all up to Tarrytown. Moon's on the stage and he says, "God made this movie. This is a prophecy of what will happen if you leave
Hayley loves that movie, I'm sure. William Friedkin made And it was the first movie where there was subliminals put deliberately in to scare people more.
That's right. I remember this. That is correct. is part of the technique in a lot of his movies. is undue influence. Yeah. Bye, everybody.
All right. Thank you, everybody. Thank you. This was fun. Thank you. Thank you.