Karen the Family Therapist Is Back

Welcome to the necessary conversation. I'm Chad Kultgen. With me today is my sister Haley Popeil, Lefty, my parents Bob and Mary Lou, and a very special guest uh Karen, aka Happy Mom and Grandma on Instagram and TikTok. We have had her here once before. As I said in that episode, we've always talked about having a family therapist come on here uh to have some conversations with us. Karen is a family therapist, but before we begin this, I do have to say Karen is a licensed marriage and family therapist here today in an educational and conversational role only, not as anybody's therapist. She's not going to be providing therapy, diagnoses, or individualized mental health advice as she is not licensed in all the states where we live. She's just going to be talking generally about family dynamics, communication, and what research and clinical experience can show about political conflict in families. With that said, thank you for being here again. Karen, I think last time you were here, you kind of got my dad to open up about his childhood, being adopted, etc., etc. Yeah, it was really It was really touching. I thought really moving. Um and thank you guys so much for having me back. It means a lot that um you'd be willing to chat with me again. Yeah. >> Welcome. Thank you. Thank you. I want to So, I kind of wanted to start because as you said last time um you know, it did get a little bit vulnerable and I wanted to check in with everybody kind of like how that last time we got together and chatted was for you. Was that comfortable or did it feel like you shared more than you were comfortable sharing or or maybe just general thoughts about um how that was for you when we last got together? Who are you asking? My dad? >> [laughter] >> Everybody in general. I I was good with it. I mean Sorry, Mom. Go ahead. Yeah, I was okay. I was fine with it. But then since we've seen you, we've had like ups and downs and podcasting and yelling and back you know kind of back to the same old stuff. But I was I was good with it. Yeah. You're okay. You're okay with it. Good. Good. You were like a super hit. Robin and Mary Lou, you guys were super hit. It was my first time doing like a bigger podcast. So I'm like reading all the comments and I'm like, "Oh my god, they loved you guys. Loved you guys." That's good, I guess. >> they they were able to perceive that as like I think our dad, you know, yeah. Like like Yes. Yeah, like there was no hateful [ __ ] going on in that episode. So I think they were able to kind of like see a different side of old Bob Kulchin. And I should mention too before we like jump into this for anybody watching at this point, we're going to attempt to not talk about politics for this whole hour. This is mainly just talking about our family dynamic and and that kind of thing. Sure, could I talk about how we were I'll go ahead. Who's talking? Am I? Let me hear from >> Can I talk about how they feel about how >> Okay. about how the last, you know, like if they had anything that felt uncomfortable or that they liked about the last um episode and then and then we'll give you the floor. Okay. Well, I think anytime you can introduce therapy really to anyone is always beneficial. Um especially my parents. I don't think you guys have ever sought out any kind of therapy. I mean, I I know that you're perfect and you've done nothing wrong and your life is just exceptional, but uh I think that um you know, everybody can benefit. I'm pretty happy with how I turned out. I just think it's kind of [ __ ] that you think that you don't need therapy. I think everyone needs therapy. Okay. Um so, you know, I think getting them on last time and kind of hearing [ __ ] come from my dad that I like we'd never heard that. I'd never heard him talk about, you know, how he felt being adopted and his mom giving him up and [ __ ] like that. So, it was a little bit eye-opening. Very vulnerable, which my dad is never never vulnerable. Like you don't ever see that side. So, yeah, I thought it was beneficial. It's always beneficial for us, I think, to talk to them on a very kind of like human level instead of just the politics and [ __ ] Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it makes sense a little bit more so, you know, how people turn out. One thing, and I use this word euphemistically, like nobody's crazy to themselves. It's like, you know, if somebody has an opinion or has a thought or has a feeling, there's a reason for it. Like nothing just kind of randomly appears. There's there's a history behind any sort of strong opinion or way of looking at the world or you know, thought or emotion or whatever it is. So, it's good to it's good to see that, I think. Yeah. Mhm. I Yeah, I was down with it. I, you know, the podcast that we do is only arguing about politics. So, it's always good, I think. And it's why I put the little um simmer downs in the middle of our episodes where we do like a question that has nothing to do with politics cuz I think it is always important, especially like like kind of one of the main or I guess the main thesis of this whole show is like I do think the the two sides must talk to each other. And I think kind of the only way to really do that is to find not even necessarily common ground, but to find subjects you can talk about that don't evoke politics. And so, you know, everything from our little simmer downs, I think last week's was like, "What's your favorite smell?" You know, just some bizarre little thing that's like, "Oh, yeah, we all have things that we like to smell. Dad, you liked grilled steak. >> [laughter] >> Who doesn't? Who doesn't? >> Yeah, exactly. Well, I don't as a human being. >> [laughter] >> It actually repulses me. But, um Sorry. Sorry. Yeah. No, I mean, I just think that these kinds of conversations where we're talking about, you know, la- or the last time you were on here specifically like my dad, his childhood, and his parents, and stuff like that. There wasn't a hint of politics in it. And it really kind of like, at least for me, you know, it kind of like re-anchors in my mind that like my parents are people. They're not just, uh, you know, MAGA maniacs. Oh my gosh. [snorts] But, I am. Okay, sorry. Didn't mean to insult you by calling you a human being. >> [laughter] >> And the first time, I guess I can It is This is political, but not really. But, the first time that we that your father got seen in public and recognized from the podcast was yesterday. And you should have seen. He was like, "Ooh." He stuck his chest out. He was like, >> "That's me. That's me." Yeah. Yeah, it was some liberal guy noticed us. But, you liked it? >> We were in a car accident. We were in a car accident. Uh, it was not our fault. We got a hit and run, and they ran and never stopped. So, we had to take our car to this collision place. As we were checking out, the lady that had helped us all week that was super duper nice, Laura, said, "You're the people on the podcast, aren't you?" I go, "Yes, I guess." And from there, then the guy that worked on our car, he came out, shook our hand, and Bob just like his chest was out, and he was [laughter] so happy that someone recognized us. Yeah, it was really cool. >> [laughter] >> And the guy said, he goes, "I know you lived in Oklahoma, but" he said, "I thought I'd never meet you. And he was like in awe of us. I was like, this is crazy town. This is crazy. I shook his hand. I said, thank you. That's what Haley told me to do. You know. Yeah, did he like want a picture and your autograph? He probably did, but I was like, we need to leave. A little uncomfortable, a little uncomfortable. Yeah. A little uncomfortable. That would be uncomfortable for me, I think. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, how was that for you, Bob? Was that pretty cool? Yeah, it was uh It was all right. [laughter] If he was a liberal, it would have been better. Mhm. Oh. [clears throat] Yeah. Okay. But sounds like he was respectful and wanted to shake your hands and Yeah. and didn't, you know, put anything He shook Mary's hand. He didn't get mine. I'm not sure he was liberal. I mean, I'm not Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Oh, >> [laughter] >> okay. Oh, shoot. It was funny though. Yeah. Um I like what you were saying, Chad, that like you know, at some point the the divisiveness in our country right? Um at some point that's going to either reach a critical point of really, really bad things happening or we're going to have to find a way to kind of like reconnect as human beings, especially within families. Mhm. You know. >> I mean, I think this is true like globally. I'm I'm a person who actually believes utopia is possible and that we should as a species work toward it at all times. And I think one of the fundamental principles of any kind of utopian society is acceptance, understanding, empathy of every member of that society. And I view humanity as the society, not a city or a town or a country, but our entire planet. And so I think you You can't have utopia when there are too many people. >> [laughter] >> I I rest my case, your honor. Some people don't think we can have utopia. I think it's possible and I do think that that one of the primary ways to do it >> can't sustain this. Some of us got to go. Okay. I'm just saying that I think these conversations where you're talking to people who are opposed to your viewpoints in any number of ways politically, ideologically, philosophically, religion, whatever. Um that has to be like one of the the core tenants of making society better is accepting that people have different views than you, being able to talk to them about those views, and still see that they are human beings. And potentially even like you're saying, understanding why they have those views, and then it may be because of a series of circumstances or events that they had no control over whatsoever, and it's just a a very human reaction to the things that have kind of been put in front of them through the course of their lives. Right. Right. Um So, Bob, you were trying to interject there. Um Chad, to be very kind, you were a little bit dismissive of your dad. Okay. >> [laughter] >> Sorry. It's fair. It's fair. I'm just I'm just saying. But, did you have more you wanted to say about that, Bob? >> Well, I'm sure that the planet can't sustain the human population where it is. And there's only one natural predator for human beings. Polar bears. >> Other human beings. >> [laughter] >> It's called He's talking wars, I'm sure. Yeah. >> [laughter] >> Sorry, I grew up in Alaska. There's not very many people there. Well, I >> [laughter] >> You're behind the eight ball. Yeah. Yeah, but people, too, for sure. Um So, I mean, I don't know statistics of like food, resources, all of that. But, I think, you know, in my field where I come from >> now right now the Chinese are buying up as much farmland in the US as they as they can because they can't feed their own people. That's a fact. That's not That's not speculation. That's actually happening. To feed their people. Okay. So, it's so from a resource perspective where my mind goes thinking about that though from like a therapy background is that I think there's a there's not enough education about how to listen to other people and and you know, be respectful and listen to their perspective. Um and I think there's a certain amount of skills that are lacking in achieving that sort of utopia. You know, I think there needs to be a tremendous amount of emotional growth and most emotional maturity in the people that we do have on this planet for what you describe Chad to be able to happen. Um and that's one thing that I can talk about with people and I love talking about that with people. Um And Chad, I hope I don't I didn't make you feel bad by saying that >> No, no. Not at dismissive of your dad, but I am I am dismissive of him a lot of times. And it's I mean, the the reason for it I think is like if you go back and listen to some of our our first episodes like maybe the first year of them. I don't think I was like that. I think it's become like over the course of the three and a half years that we've done this show just the barrage dad that comes from you of saying that you're you want genocides or you want the city I live in to burn down or you don't care if Donald Trump kills me. Those for me I have to be like pretty dismissive of [ __ ] like that when you say it. And so when I'm saying like I think humanity should move toward a a more utopian existence and I think there's a path to it. And you're like, "WE CAN'T HAVE A UTOPIA." I'M just kind of like, "All right, whatever. Let me get my my thing [clears throat] up." Because I've I've kind of learned essentially to dismiss virtually anything you say to those ends that have to do with like humanity's demise, my own demise, the demise of entire populations, things of that nature. I I do feel this though, within the last year on the podcast, both you and Haley have gotten more you're more grumpy, you're more quick to react and say things, and a little bit more mean maybe some days. I'm like, "Hey, I don't want to go here, but you're getting more grumpy over this last year." What do you think Why do you think that might have happened? What has happened over the last year? Because you keep saying you h a t e someone. And it's not us. >> What? That you hate our president. Well, it's cuz I wake up every I wake up every day to a [ __ ] headline that's just like catastrophic. >> Yeah. Like, you know, I just I just woke up to like the state of Kansas is attacking trans people, taking their driver's licenses away, like invalidating an entire community of people. Um, that affects me because it affects my son and all of his friends. And so, I mean, it's now it's trans people, then it's going to be people of color, then it's women, like the surgeon general [ __ ] going on right now talking about taking away birth control. So, I wake up every day just like in a state of [ __ ] duress. Uh, and it has been since Donald Trump was was in office. So, >> So, you're okay you're okay with the Chinese buying up all our farmland and feeding their people and starving us out? They're not doing that. Oh, yes, they are. Uh, it's it's it is difficult to kind of operate with any sense of normalcy, I guess. >> You don't live You don't live in a state where that's happening. So, can I interject here? Um >> [clears throat] >> Bob, I want to say the same thing to you that I said to Chad. Um just notice you kind of dismissing Haley's concern and um bringing something else up, right? What What concerns >> her concerns her concerns I'm not bringing something else up. I'm trying to educate her on the fact that this is actually going on today. We We don't have to wait for the Chinese to do it. It's happening now. They don't That's what she wanted to talk about. They don't listen and they don't hear us. They just wait for their turn to talk. So, let me let me let me see what I can do here with that. Let me see what we can do here. So, Haley was talking about her fear for her son and his friends. And specifically about what's happening in Kansas with the trans people. Um people are much more likely to hear what you have to say if you first acknowledge what they say. Right? So, when I say that you kind of changed the subject, it was it was um Haley will hear you a lot better if you're able to say, "Yeah, I hear you. I understand how that's you know." >> the one who changed the subject. What's that? Haley is the one who changed the subject, not me. She went I was talking about the Chinese trying to feed their own people, and she went straight into some tran- transgender rant. No, Mom Mom was talking about us being grumpier on the I was trying to express why we're grumpier on the show, and you don't listen to me and you don't hear me. You just want to spout your [ __ ] about China. I heard you, Haley, but I think we all are in hard times having to navigate everything that we're being bombarded with on TV, on the internet. It's hard. We're not I'm not coping that well, either. Every day, something new, new, new, new. And that's something that we Sorry, that's something that we can acknowledge that I think everybody's everybody in this room is waking up and seeing a headline that's scary or infuriating. That might be scared or infuriated. What does it make you feel? Like when we turn on TV and we're getting closer to war with Iran, that doesn't scare me. And it certainly doesn't infuriate me. I'm all for it. Well, what if it does? Like what if that's how Chad and I feel? Do you not care? Well, you're you're not in the same group of people that I'm in. So, what you So, what you think what you what you think is not going to turn out the way you want it to. It's going to turn out the way I want it to. But say you Say you wake up in the morning, Bob, and you'll you see a headline like China's buying up all of the farmland. That doesn't scare me. Well, how does it make you feel? It pisses me off. It pisses you off. Okay. Okay. But where do you think anger comes from, Dad? You don't think it's related to fear? No. Okay. I also want to >> I mean, you you seem to think that being mad about something is the same thing as fearing it. I don't. I know, and I I am disagreeing with you on that. But I also I want to ask you about this. You said we are not in the same group of people referring to me and Haley and you and Mom, but we literally are. It's our family. That group of people, we are all four in it. We are in the same group of people. >> get on board with our side of the fence. Oh my gosh. Is that what you want, Bob? Yeah. You want them to and they and Bob and Haley, you guys want mom and dad to get on your side of the fence, fair? Yes. That's what they want. >> Yeah. Mary Lou, where are you on this? Do you want I feel >> I feel like I'm more in the middle and try to hold us all together all the time and it gets too hard. It gets way too hard. You get exhausted, huh? Yes. Yeah, I can see that. Yeah. Yeah. Um So Haley says something, Bob says something, Chad says something. Does any of you feel like other people in the family listen to what you had to say in that couple minutes there? In this exchange May I think my mom does and and I know we my mom and I do sometimes these little midweek episodes where we'll show each other clips of of different things and whatever. And I do think mom that you're receptive to like talking about things and that you do think about these things sometimes. I know it's like you you as dad does obviously, but I don't think you're as bad. You have a a kind of predisposition to refer back to whatever the Newsmax talking points are on any given subject, but if I can show you some stuff here and there, I do think I've shown you some videos and we've had conversations about certain things that at least to me show you are actually listening to some of this stuff. And I hope you feel the same way when I'm playing your clips, when you send me these like what I perceive to be insane clips of people saying the wildest [ __ ] on planet Earth, but I'm still playing them and watching them with you and talking about them. Are you talking conspiracy theories? Well, like the Michael Jackson being alive one is is certainly among them, yes. >> [laughter] >> I still think he's alive. No, I don't. I do not think he's alive, but I do think some evil people maybe put him down early there. That's I agree with you on that. There we found common ground. Do you feel like you and Chad are pretty respectful about listening to each other and hearing each other's point of view on those midweek? I think so. Yes, I do. Yeah. Okay. >> And Haley used to be in them two midweek, but now she's too busy. >> [laughter] >> I mean I mean not meaning that was rude, but she's real busy with her job and I understand that. Being a capitalist instead of a communist. Okay, we're not doing politics, please. She owns a bakery, you know this and she's busy baking. Baking biscuits. And selling t-shirts. Haley, do you play poker? >> [laughter] >> No. You have a good You have a good poker face. Yeah, I don't know You know, I don't know. >> [laughter] >> I've been I've been dealing with this [ __ ] for 44 years, so I'm just unfazed. Okay. Yeah, but at one Well, no, I won't say that. That was the question I had. Like what was the relationship like before politics became What Did you guys have these sort of conflictual discussions about other things before politics came along? No. Not to my knowledge. I mean, I It depends on how far back you want to go, obviously, but I remember being like, you know, 10 to 12, that age. Dad, you were my best friend, literally. We did everything together. We played baseball, we collected baseball cards, we went to baseball games. It was all baseball related, but nonetheless, it was like my entire life was that, you know? We hung out all the time, played RBI Baseball Nintendo at night. And sometimes you would then force me to do wind sprints down the hallway and time me. But, uh >> [laughter] >> Nevertheless, >> so exciting. we were hanging out, you know, yeah. We were doing [ __ ] together. >> One of those old pictures that I sent you, Chad and Haley, it was Dad and Haley standing with their trophies together. Yeah, that was a [clears throat] funny ass picture. >> Yeah, like yeah, he was heavily involved in our sports careers and uh he coached my teams like all the way up until high school, I think. Like was always my coach. I was always playing sports with Dad. He'd take me to go buy CDs and [ __ ] Like that was our thing. He'd take me to Toys R Us to get like new Barbies and [ __ ] So, yeah, he was like a very present dad. Wow. Um you know, none of this political [ __ ] existed cuz we were kids, who the [ __ ] cares. Uh so, yeah, I mean, I have I have lots of fond memories from when we were little. My my first kind of like memory of politics coming into our family was 19 God, what would it have been? 89, 90, 91, whenever Desert Storm was going down. I remember that was on TV and I remember Dad, you were like excited and happy to be watching the coverage of it and like, "Yeah, get them, kill them." That was the first and I had no like opinion of that as a kid. I was like, "Whatever, I guess America's slaughtering people, great." G.W. But, uh that was the first time that I remember politics being like kind of entering the family sphere. That's my first memory of it, anyway. Hm. Mine that was a bad experience of it was when we lived in Houston and you and Dad went out at one night. You came home from college, maybe? Do you remember? Maybe Obama? >> No, I think Yeah, that wouldn't have been college. I was far out of college at that point. Um this is probably when I was 30 whatever. I mean, when was Obama president? That Yeah, he would have been out of college. But, you and dad were in the living room and I'd gone to bed and I hear y'all out there just like going back and forth. I go, "What is going on here?" And you guys were going at it with politics. Yeah. Well, that became kind of the mode anytime Haley and I would come back. We'd come in, sit on the couch in the living room silently, and just wait for dad to erupt yelling at us about whatever the the thing was that week. >> I don't remember Haley ever chiming in and being like yelling back on politics so until now. Really? Until the podcast. Yeah. I I wasn't I didn't care about politics until I think I had kids. Yeah, your own kids. >> I've said this multiple times like Sandy Hook [ __ ] changed something within me. I think you got worse when you started the bakery. No. Um Sandy Hook is like it radicalized me, you know? It was like >> [snorts] >> we literally don't have gun laws. They're [ __ ] murdering children in school and I had kids in school and that really like opened my eyes to to different policies and like Texas government and federal government. Like I really didn't give a [ __ ] up until that and Obama. Like I remember voting and thinking like holy [ __ ] like this is going to be a historical moment, you know? >> [clears throat] >> Um so I think it was those two things kind of that awakened something in me uh and now I consider myself an activist. So politics is deeply ingrained in who I am. But I do think it started after your kids were like you'd already raised them. You were ready to do something else and then you started the bakery and what dad said is true. You kind of incorporated or what do you call the word? Integrated all your political stuff into your business then. I do believe that. I do, yeah, but I it was just this this bakery became an opportunity for me. That's when I started social media. I was never on social media like as a stay-at-home mom. As a business owner, you must do that. You're [ __ ] dead in the water without social media. So, upon [ __ ] arrival, this is who I am. You either like me, you hate me, I don't give a [ __ ] So, it's become part of of my brand, who I am, what we stand for. So, I very much, you know, activism is a part of what I do in that business. And I mean, I always will be. It always will be. Yeah. Yeah. Was there So, was there this sort of conflict? It was really politics that created this sort of division and conflict for everybody, yeah? Yeah, but I mean, it also, I think, was the world got like, obviously, way more politically hyper-charged in the past, let's say, since Obama. Like, Trump coming into politics, like, all the the wildness that has happened. And I think that has exacerbated, obviously, the the role politics plays in our family, obviously, because we're on opposite sides of it. But I also think there's a piece of this that is me and Haley becoming adults. And that this like some version of this disagreement about lifestyle or what we're doing with our lives was going to happen regardless. Yeah. I think it's made more acute by the political kind of element being thrown into it as well. But yeah, I think this was um there was something I you know, like I was saying, you know, you and me, Dad, were best friends and and when I was a kid and you were like so heavily involved in our lives. I think it was difficult for both of you guys. Mom, you were, too. To like allow that part of all of our lives collectively to move on. Personally, this is my own personal belief. I think you guys had a hard time when Haley and I left, went to college, and started to become adults and are like leading our own lives and stuff. Um and I think that is a little bit of a part of it that like allowing Haley and I to have adult opinions about anything, politics is is one of those things, but I think it's difficult for you because it means on some small level the death of that relationship we had when we were kids. Um personally, this is my my two cents, you know. There's like there's two things to unpack here. It's like uh they will never perceive us as adults. We will always be the children. And so anything that we say kind of can't be taken seriously cuz I have definitely noted like we had Hasan [ __ ] on or we were on his show. They listened to him. Yeah. Okay? >> [laughter] >> And they won't listen to us. It's because we're their [ __ ] kids. And the second thing to unpack there is that they had these expectations that they put upon us. You know, you're going to be uh the doctor and you're going to take this route and you're going to play softball and you're going to go to the Olympics. Like they had already predetermined our lives for us probably from the day we were born. And as a parent myself, I know that the best gift I can give my children is to have no expectation. You are who you are. You go out into the world and you show me who you are and I accept that because I love them for who they are. We were definitely like given this path that like you're going to do this [ __ ] and Chad and I didn't. And so I think that that's been hard for them probably like to this day. Okay. Like like I own [clears throat] a bakery and I did I did like an alt lifestyle. Yeah. And I mean I don't even know how many times I've heard my parents say that they're proud of me for that. We know like like like You haven't. You haven't. Let's see. We can go back on like the last episode. Maybe you Well, how about this? How about this, Mary Lou? How about this? I'm proud of you, Haley. Your father and I are very proud of you. And your dad will say the same thing. When he talks to you about adult people. >> I just I go back to when I told you I wanted to open a bakery. And you guys told me I was going to end up bankrupt and living with you. You did not encourage me to follow that dream. You in fact told me I was going to fail. You want Are you denying it? >> to you. Haley, take it the next step. Say how did that make you feel? I mean, I'll be honest. I I feel like uh I don't I don't know that it did hurt. I mean, I I feel like from a very young age I've had to kind of like I rely on me. Like how I >> I think the line you got was not you're going to fail. It's you need to get your own money and start your own business and see if you can do it. I And and that And this is And this is something you made up. I never asked you for [ __ ] You asked us for 80 I won't say the amount. I never asked you for [ __ ] You are literally gaslighting me. Haley, you asked us for money. You are lying! Okay, hold on. Hold on. Time out. Time out. Hold on. Hold on. My turn. Let me talk. Let me talk. Let me talk. Okay. It's easy to get caught up in the details. The The point that Haley's trying to make is that she feels like since she didn't go down the path that she thought that she understood that you wanted for her that you're disappointed in her and that you're not proud of her. And that's the most important thing about this about this last couple minutes. I'm so sorry, Haley, if you feel that way. I apologize. We never have made you want to feel that way. Now, I have always said until the day I die, but now I backtracked and taken that away. If I felt either one of you were making a wrong little turn, like maybe into drugs, maybe doing illegal stuff, something like that, I would say "Hey, no, you're not going to do that and stop it." I But I would always I'm a mother until the day I died, I I thought I could help you if needed. But it's getting so hard. I've thrown my hands up. And I know, but I don't think it was ever that. You wanted a certain life for us and we didn't choose it. You did the same thing with Chad. Well, I'm sorry you felt that way. All I wanted for both of you is to be happy and I hope you are and I'm proud of both of you. Thank you. Well, just let that sit Take that in, Haley. Take that in. Mhm. Yeah, take in that both of you got your college education paid for. By who? Us. It doesn't have anything to do with money, Bob. >> No, but it has to do with the fact that you you didn't think we let you go down the path you wanted to go down. >> Yeah, we said But Chad, we sent you to USC, the most liberal goddamn school on the planet Uh-huh. and didn't say a word. I I I'm not I'm sitting here listening. I don't know why you're coming at for me. Bob, Hold on. Hold on. Hold on. Haley, you got same deal. We gave you where you wanted to go to school and we paid for it. Mhm. So, Bob, let me I I understand. Hold on. Um Bob, it sounds like you feel offended by what they're saying. Yeah. I'm sorry, Chad. I don't mean to loop you into this, but I what Haley's saying that Haley you're offended that Haley is saying that she her experience was that you kind of had a predetermined route for her because you don't >> had things I wanted her to do, but she chose not to do them, but it didn't affect how I took care of her. And and you supported >> thing? But there is no appreciation for that. Okay. Dad, if I may. If I may. Yes. >> I think that it's like you always view supporting us through a financial lens. And of course, we are extremely Listen, just listen. We are >> to work my ass off for the financial end. I understand. You know how Haley complains about 13-hour days? Well, strap on 24 hours a day. That's what I did for many, many years. It's always a competition with you. I know. I mean, I get up in the middle of the [ __ ] night to pray. >> It is. All right. So, hang on. This is what I was going to say, okay? You What are you looking at? What's going on, Dad? Well, we're expect- expecting to get our fence stained, and I'm waiting for that jackass to show up. >> Bob, pay attention. I have to switch. Um So, that's okay because my computer's about to die. My charger is not working. So, I'm going to switch to my phone. So, it's just going to take a second. I'm so sorry. >> Means are Will that work? >> do that, can you just keep your phone sideways? Yeah. Okay. Um >> Chad, what were you going to say? You were going to say something. Yes, I was going to say that Dad, you always are talking about um Oh, let me see if I can do this now. I probably have to be There you go. There you go. You need to turn off the other one. Yeah, perfect. Okay. >> Sorry, guys. Now I can't see your faces as well, but I'm impressed. I could never have done that. >> [laughter] >> Never. Um okay. So, what I was going to What I was going to say was anytime this type of conversation ever starts to be approached, uh Mom and Dad, you both always immediately go to the financial angle. And of course, Haley and I are very grateful that you helped us go through college and all the [ __ ] that you've given us throughout our lives. Of course, we I think both of us feel like we never >> of you And neither one of you experienced what we did. You never went through financials dire straits. I know. >> And dug yourself out of a hole and became multi-millionaires. We did that. Okay, I understand. And And what I'm saying is you always go to this financial thing as though because of that Haley and I can't feel any type way about the actual emotional treatment or lack of support. And I can give you a million examples, but I'll just say broadly, yes, you helped me go to USC film school. Then from the day probably my mid-30s, you were telling me to leave LA, stop the stupid [ __ ] come work for me and trade oil and gas. You I I assume have not maybe read one of the books I've written. You may assume >> read no books. He hasn't read any of the books. Like he has a kid who has published six books. He hasn't read any of them. So, that type of thing is what we're talking about. Yes, you you helped us financially. We're never saying that wasn't amazing and we thank you for that. But the other side of this is ideologically, you have [ __ ] on everything we've done either through not engaging with it >> Wow. >> or actively >> insane. I had it again. I remember a time when I was a stay-at-home when I was I was a stay-at-home mom and you told me I was wasting my [ __ ] degree. Then I become a business owner and you tell me, "Now you're a [ __ ] mom." And I could never [ __ ] win with you. Who said that? Both of you. Oh my god. Mom, you guilted me when I went when I went and started working, you tried to guilt me over that because I wasn't there for my kids anymore. I was hoping you would wait till your children got a little bit older. And I did say that to you. >> wasn't good enough? They were all in school full-time and you said that to me. No, the little one wasn't yet. >> That's [ __ ] >> Okay. Hold on. Hold on. It So again, you know, I know Mary Lou and Bob, this is probably very hard to hear, right? But you know, this is this is a time and a space for for Hayley's trying to say um and I think Chad's trying to say that they've not felt supported in in ways um and that that hurts. Yeah, I'm sorry you both feel that way. I've loved you since the minute you popped out and I've never stopped and never will. And when your father and I are gone, the only thing you have left is you two. And you better stick together. You got both me and Bob in you and I'm sorry that we failed you that you think that way about us. This isn't like an insult. We're not coming at you or anything like that. No, and I don't feel this way at all. I'm saying this is kind of how it was. I have now dealt with whatever uh feelings that I've had. I'm like way past this [ __ ] We're just having a conversation about it as adults. That's fine. I don't feel bad about you or dad or any of that. I'm just telling you there were some years there and I and I know you guys are always saying we supported you financially, all this and you did and that's incredible. I feel extremely lucky to have had parents like you who can do that kind of stuff. >> have. Okay. Maybe we gave you too much. You did. Build a time machine, and back and punish us. Maybe we should. Listen, just listen to what I'm saying. Please, Mom. Okay. Yeah. Go on. >> We love you very much, both of you, and we are extremely grateful for everything you've done for us. Also, there were some times in our lives where we didn't feel like you were supporting the decisions we were making as adults entering the world. Those two things can be true and okay. I'm not I mean, listen, I'm not yelling. I'm not mad. I'm not sad about this. I'm just telling you this is how it was, and that's fine. I get mad because you gaslight me. You say you didn't do these things. You didn't say these things. And I know you did, and I have a husband who was there who knows you did, and it makes me angry. Because you [ __ ] deny truths. In regards to what, Haley? You continuously this is like some made-up [ __ ] in your head that I asked you for money to open my bakery. That is a [ __ ] lie. Why We leveraged our home and our 401K and went to the bank to open that bakery. I never asked you for a dime. You guys always revolve everything around money. Why do Dad and I in our minds think $85,000? Am I pulling that >> I don't know. It was 80 a minute ago. >> [laughter] >> It was 80-some. Okay. I don't know where you're pulling that from because I never asked you for money. >> I didn't tell I didn't tell you >> us for money to start the bakery? What she wanted to do is let us help her start the bakery, and I was the one who told you if you if you really think you got to do this, you all do it on your And get a small business loan. >> it more. >> He did it on get it paid, and that is exactly what I told you. >> No, I never asked you for a single dime. I didn't say I just didn't say you did. I said if you want to start this business, you >> need to put the bill and go and get your money. Put it together cuz you work hard. >> it a try. I never heard him say that. >> I never once told you You didn't >> you can't have money. That's [ __ ] >> You didn't need to say that because that was my business plan. And then all of a sudden you I've asked you for $85,000. Which I never did. I swear I thought that number. [clears throat] >> No. Okay. Okay. So, a couple things are happening here. Mary Lou, you feel like your kids are just [ __ ] on you and telling you were you you were a piece of [ __ ] mom, yeah? >> Yep. Yep. Yep. >> Yeah. Okay. Okay. How are you dealing with that? I mean, do you take that in and just kind of be like, well, [ __ ] I should never have even bothered trying or Kind of right now. At 10:00 till 1:00, that's kind of how I feel. I I think Haley's always blamed me for something, always. She's never been happy and I think she has always blamed me and Bob for her not being happy. Is that not right, Haley? I am happy. I do everything that I want in life. I don't understand. >> There's a little bit of resentment though about like what you're talking about right now, that you haven't felt supported. I don't know at a very young age. I mean, I think even like as a teenager, I kind of just in my mind knew that like they were never going to uh like our parents were always there for us. They supported us financially, but like when you're a kid and like they didn't hug us a lot. They didn't tell us that they loved us a lot. Like outward emotion was not a thing in our house. And that kind of turned you into a certain kind of person. So, you know, you become self-reliant. So, I never >> I never hugged you. I never said I love you. I never gave emotion to either one of you. I mean >> Now who's lying Mary Lou? I don't remember that. I don't remember affection in our house. Do you Chad? Yeah, I mean I do a little from mom for sure, but none from dad ever. That's right. >> [laughter] >> Mary Lou Mary Lou Mary Lou I just want to I can see you're really struggling with this and so I just want to take a minute to to kind of like you know, give you a minute. You're deeply hurt that Haley is saying that. Okay, because you remember being affectionate with your kids, being loving with them, hugging them, being there for them emotionally. Yep. And and for Haley to be saying that you know, like you said, she's probably not lying, she's probably remembering differently. Um but that's really wounding to you because as we've talked about before, family family is one of your most important values. So right now you're you feel like you're being told you know, you weren't a good enough mom. That's right. Okay. Okay. I Mom, I want you to know if if I may. >> Sometimes I think thinking back I gave too much. Haley, um I want a pair of Doc Martens. Okay, here's one pair. Oh, I need another color. Okay, here's another one. I need another one. How many did you end up getting Haley? I gave too much sometimes. Hm. 60 pairs of Doc Martens, is that what you had? I don't know. So But you're again talking about material things and money. >> Right. >> Yeah. Right. Yeah. I gave too much. >> So Mary Lou, when you're when when Haley was sad or came home from a game that she didn't perform well in or something, were you there for her? Yes, I feel like I was. Okay. >> there when she got dumped by a boy and she cried on my shoulder and I said, "Don't you worry. The right guy is out there for you. You will find Mr. Perfect." >> That's true. >> go on medication. I said, "It's okay. We love you. You'll find the right guy." But she doesn't see that as support, I guess. What else could I do? What else I mean Okay. I don't know. Well, let me throw a theory out there that I might be off on, but sometimes we judge our parents by the standards that we have today. Um in my household growing up, I'm a bit older than you, Haley. But, you know, stoicism was a very big deal. You know, don't cry, keep a stiff upper lip. Um the way that I raised my children is very different from the way that I was raised, you know. And I think we have to recognize you know, truly our generation is the first one that is really understanding the impact and the importance of emotional attunement with your kids, right? That is not something that was even even really known about um when when you were being raised. And so, with the education and the information, um Mary Lou, were you of the Dr. Spock generation? Yes. Yeah. Yeah, so yeah, so my folks were, too, right? And they were loving and lovely and all of that, but, you know, the emotional nurturance wasn't there. And that's not through any fault of their own. Had they known that was important, had they had the skills to do that, they absolutely would have done that. And Mary Lou, I believe that's true for you, too. I think given who you are, where you come from, everything that you knew about being a parent, you worked really, really hard to be the best mom you knew how to be. Is that fair to say? Apparently not, through Haley's eyes. >> For you. Well, that's why that's why I'm trying to give this is why we don't ever talk about it. Give me a chance here. So, that's why I'm trying to offer this perspective. Because it, you know, if Haley can maybe see your perspective a little bit and have an understanding of generationally how we have evolved as parents. Um maybe she will be a little bit more graceful about the things that you did offer. Because I I do believe, Mary Lou, that you were the best mom you knew how to be. And Bob, I think yeah, so I'm not calling them [ __ ] parents. These are like incidents which that I >> Yeah. Well, that's how they always feel. It's like a generalization. And then, you know, they're they're on the defense and they're on the attack. I have I've given you instances where I thought you were great parents. But there are times where you weren't and you have a hard time understanding that because it was not all great. We had great moments, but we also had really shitty moments. I'm sorry you feel that way. I have given you every second of my life with love from the minute you both popped out. I did the very best I could. I'm really sorry you feel that way. Mom, we're we're This is not an attack or anything. You I can see that you're No, I can see that you're defensive. We love you. We love both of you guys. That's why we're doing this podcast. That's why we're having this conversation so that these things Sorry, Haley, go ahead. There was a question. I think maybe you asked that the last time we had you on, like what would you have done different as parents and you said absolutely nothing. And that beautifully illustrates that you think you did everything right. But me and Chad are telling you that you didn't. That doesn't make you shitty parents, it just means we had bad moments. And I would also add like it's not about right or wrong. I don't think there is a right in parenting, you know. There may be a couple of wrongs we can all agree on. You shouldn't kill your children or whatever, but um I think you were doing the best you could. Haley and I turned out great. We're both happy, leading healthy lives. Yeah, there's some bumps, but like everybody has that. You're telling me you guys don't have [ __ ] from your parents? Like we're looking at it, you know what I mean? Of course. And it's like Karen is saying, these kind of generational traumas or behavioral patterns just get recycled again and again and again and again and there's nothing any of us can really do about it other than have these conversations, identify them, discuss why they're happening, potentially change that behavior if it is something that you feel is detrimental to your kind of day-to-day life. And that's all this is. We're just talking about stuff, Mom. We're not attacking you. We love you. We thank you too, Dad, and we thank you for everything you have given us. But we also want to be able to have an adult conversation with you about how we felt as kids and and that's it. That's all this is. It's just a conversation about how we felt as kids. And like Chad said, this is literally all we've lived it. It's in the past. I'm not angry about any of that [ __ ] anymore. I get angry when like we bring it up and I feel like you make me feel like I'm insane because you gaslight me. You literally just lie about [ __ ] and I don't understand that. I Haley, and I'm not trying to put you on this spot here too much, but um do you think they're lying or do you think they remember it differently? Hard to say. Uh maybe they I don't know. I guess they [ __ ] made it up. I don't know. Like I feel insane sometimes because I I know something to be true. Mhm. And then, you know, they'll refute it. Well, it's pretty easy to see how this conversation about borrowing money came to be where, you know, you said I'm opening a bakery. Your dad gave you some advice, which you said you didn't need, but he gave you advice as fathers tend to do and mothers tend to do, too. And Mary Lou, maybe you either overheard part of that and took from it that the conversation had been initiated by Haley asking for money. I mean, it's really hard to see how a misunderstanding like that could have occurred. But I don't think, Mary Lou, you're just making it up out of nowhere to make Haley look bad. No. Um but it's also important that when Haley is saying that's not true, it didn't happen, that you can believe her. I'm thinking back in my mind right now, I see her sitting on this couch right over here. I want my bakery. I want my bakery. I want my bakery. Probably a hundred times one Christmas. I want my bakery. I want my bakery. And I In my mind, I heard a number. >> Yeah. So. Okay. >> I mean, you could have We could have read you the business plan and said this is what's going to happen. But I with 100% certainty can tell you I never asked you for a dime. Because I know what that would mean for starters. Okay. >> Do you remember dad saying you will work harder, go get your small business loan? Do you remember that line? Yeah, but it was for no reason. It was unsolicited. I never asked you for anything. That alludes that I asked you for money. I didn't. And that's easy to see that's where this happens. I mean our memories what one thing we know for sure about our memories is they are not very good. They're not accurate at all. Okay, so it's okay to say I remember you asking for money. And Haley for you to say I remember and I have knowledge that I absolutely didn't. And then you can choose to believe each other. You can choose to one of you can choose to believe the other. Or you can say, well, I guess we just remember it differently. Or you can continue arguing about it for the rest of your lives. We Those are >> [laughter] >> the options. Option three, we choose that. differently, for sure. Yeah, we you remember it differently and that's fine. That's okay. Right? Yeah. That's okay. Yeah. It worked out well. And Mary Lou and Bob, one thing is that when your children are saying, "Hey, these things hurt us when we were kids." Is that just really really hard to hear? Yes. >> Because you that comes with that comes with you didn't do well enough, right? >> Yes. Okay. Okay. Um >> But can I ask you something on that? Did your parents ever hurt you as kids? Did you ever have any kind of emotional uh traumas, any kind of bad moments with your parents ever? Yes, but then I never would say it back to their face later because that's called respect and I loved them and I would respect whatever wish they did. Yeah. >> Okay, but see we're trying to change that by having the conversation so that we don't have these pent-up things that we just like swallow down and Just let me die thinking I did good, please. >> You did. >> We're not saying you did >> me die that way, please. You did good. Look at us. >> hug. My My My parents I played football, baseball, wrestled, ran track one year. My mom and dad came to one wrestling match. And they told me how awful it was for them. Damn. And so that's why you were Yeah, Karen is is having some technical difficulties. Maybe she'll come back. Maybe she won't. But um But that's why Dad you were at every one of our sporting events. >> Yes. Yes. He attended everyone. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Karen didn't get to hear that. Bob said through all his athletic events in high school >> She went again. Nope. Oh goodness. >> Yep. Oh. Yep. Having some technical difficulties. >> [laughter] >> Uh-oh. New Zealand. There she is. There there. Oh. Maybe. >> back? Nope. Yep. >> [laughter] >> Okay. Well Maybe we'll sit here and >> That may be the end. It takes [laughter] us >> [gasps] >> I think technically that's going to be the end. We've lost Karen. But uh thank you Mom and Dad for um Yeah. We'll do it again. >> There she is. There she is. Maybe. >> back? Are you back? I don't think so. Yeah. Yeah, well anyway I didn't get no hugs and kisses. Well, he didn't get parents to come watch him play sports. >> And my parents And my parents were my adopted parents, they didn't give a rat's ass. Yeah. Okay. No, I know, but that's kind of what we're trying to talk about here is um There I muted the mic. That was so loud. Um That's kind of what we're trying to talk about here is your parents didn't give you these types of affection or show up for in that way. And so you did make a course correction, which is great. You you were in our lives every second of it, which is fantastic. But still that other thing where you're like, my parents didn't give me a hug ever, that maintained. That translated through. You know what I'm saying? Well, I didn't cry about it. I'm not saying you did. You guys are you only hear the bad [ __ ] You were great parents. Financially you supported us. We love you. I am appreciative of everything you've done for me. You're great to my kids. You're not bad parents. There are just moments throughout our lives where, you know, I I remember feeling unsupported. I remember feeling like I like you should be there for me more than you were. I don't know, but it's not it doesn't make you a bad parent. There are just moments that I think you could have done better. Well, okay. I got to go. All right. Bye, Dad. >> and we lost Karen. I know. This one devolved quickly. We lost a person. Yes. But I just want to end this by saying Mom and Dad, I love you both very much. That's why we're doing this podcast and it's why I want to have these conversations with you. Like I I do think part of at least for our family, part of the necessary conversation is talking about this stuff. And I know it's not easy. I know you don't like hearing these things. But we're also not like like look at Haley and I. We're fully adults. We this is not anything that we're talking about that affects our lives on a day-to-day basis, obviously. But we just want to be able to have conversations with you as adults about our lives that we have shared with you that you have given us. That's all. >> And and if we didn't if we didn't love you, we wouldn't do this. There are kids all over the country that just [ __ ] isolate. They literally cut off communication. I don't want that. I want you in my life. This when do we do this therapy it dredges up [ __ ] from the past and I know that's hard to hear, but like I don't not want you in my life. I love you guys. Well, I made a commitment to do this podcast, too. And I'm not going to quit it. Cuz we are all Okay, but but beyond the podcast you are also I mean you haven't made a formal commitment, but you are obligated to be in this family, whatever that means to you, whatever that looks like to you, you know. Um oh, hang on. Let me see. Here's Karen is back. >> [laughter] >> Here comes dad, too. >> Okay, dad's coming back now. Oh, y'all. Oh, y'all. Uh we were just wrapping up, Karen, but Bob had to leave for a second, too. So, y'all y'all ditched us for a second. Okay. Okay. So, before we wrap up, can I just say one thing about kids being disappointed and being hurt growing up? Uh unless you guys have already kind of wrapped that up. We kind of did, but please say what you like. Okay. So, Mary Lou, I just don't want you to walk away from this feeling super criticized and like a piece of [ __ ] parent. Bob, you, too. I don't want either of you to walk away from that. >> No, I'm there. You're there. You You're feeling that way. >> [laughter] >> No, he He already feels okay. That's what he means. Right? No. Oh. I'm piece of [ __ ] parent. Oh. No, you're not. Nobody ever said that. We In fact, we said quite the opposite. But again, this is how they're feeling, right? And that's a terrible way to feel. Sure. Right? Because the And the one thing that these conversations can do, I mean, bringing something up and then just leaving it out there isn't that helpful. But if you bring something up and say this is how me as a child or me as a young adult felt about this. And it wasn't helpful to me growing up. And there can be there can be a conversation about it where there's some repair. Where it's like you know, well, of course we never wanted you to be in pain as a child. We never wanted you to feel badly as a child. And you know, the our actions were never meant for that to happen. But if there's some sort of repair where you can be like hey, this was something that has always hurt me. And now we can talk about it and then it can it can kind of go away. That does so much for the relationship. My my real mother gave me away. And the parents that raised me really didn't they weren't involved in my life at all. My father was 43 years old when they adopted me as a baby. So he was more like a grandpa than he was a father. And the the real family I had in life were my sports people. That's how you knew to show love is through sports. Yeah. Probably. Yeah. That's how you felt accepted. That's how you felt some sense of family. That's how you felt community and value as as a child. And so you took that. That was what love was. And you gave that to your children, right? Mhm. And probably that's the reason he married me. He said to me, you're a good athlete. Do you want to have children? I said, yes, someday. >> [laughter] >> There you go. And that's why you raised them to be superstar athletes. And there you go. Wait wait wait wait wait wait though. >> And they were both good athletes. Yeah, I mean I guess dad was too, right? Like four four sport letterman and all that in high school. Yeah. So Mhm. I think we got to the bottom of that right there. Yeah. That, you know, being involved in sports equals love. And so, that's that's really important. But, and also, that then, you know, the ways that um we say nobody gets through childhood unscathed. And a lot of that, you know, a So, a child can have little t trauma if they go to touch a hot stove and mom screams at them and runs across the room and hits them or pushes them away, the kid doesn't understand that mom did that for a reason. A child's brain is not developed enough to understand. The kid just knows that mom just came at me from out of nowhere, and that's scary. Mhm. Right? So, a child's brain just of because of the way it's undeveloped, you know, it can the child can feel certain ways, and the parents are like, "What?" Right? And you guys didn't do everything perfectly. So, I should have let them touch the stove more. Not that Not that. Not [laughter] that. I know. That's what I'm thinking. I should have I mean, from the minute they started to walk, I was right there. Don't fall. Don't fall. Don't fall. I felt like I was that way. I was a helicopter parent. >> Very protective. >> felt that. I should have let them fall. I should have let them touch the stove. I And they would have still been okay and great people, maybe. >> Maybe. Yeah. But, we learned things, right? Like, there's so many things about raising my kids I wish I would have done different. I was you know, I wasn't I was young. I was not right I was not emotionally mature. I yelled and got mad and yelled at me You know, there's things that I wish I could go back and do differently. Um and it's hard as a mom not to get wrapped up in the guilt of that, right? But, it's also just like that young person that I was didn't didn't have the maturity and didn't know better, right? So, I did the best that I could. And some of it wasn't helpful to my kids, right? So, I just want to make sure that that's >> I'm okay. >> Yeah, okay. Yeah, and Bob, I want you to be okay. And Haley and Chad, I don't want you guys to feel like I'm glossing over because I think having these conversations and coming to a repair where you, you know, where um you know, if mom and dad are able to show up in a way that they're not feeling like you know, shame and awful parents about it. And they're able to say, "Yeah, I can see how that wasn't helpful for you." Yeah, I we we kind of talked about this when you were um When we lost >> plugging back in the computer or whatever. Yeah, when when we had some technical difficulties. We kind of talked about like, you know, I wanted to make sure that they understand we love them and we think they were fantastic parents. We turned out great. We both have great lives. We also just want to be able to have adult conversations with you about anything. Don't you want us to be able to talk to you about anything and everything? This is one of those things. That's all. Okay. Okay. All right. Uh well, thank you everybody for joining us. Thank you, Karen, for joining us once again. Please go follow her at Happy Mom and Grandma on Instagram and Tik Tok if you want to see some wild [ __ ] about what Donald Trump is sending his supporters in emails. Um absolutely fantastic work that you do there and thank you, Haley, for joining us. Thank you all for joining us. As always, before we go, Haley, I love you. Thank you for doing this. Mom and Dad, I do love you very much and I thank you for showing up to this. I know this is not easy to have these conversations, but you are here and you are having them, which is 90% of it in my mind. And Karen, uh thank you for being here with us on this, too. No, well, thank you for having me. Thank you for letting me join the family for an hour. >> [laughter] >> You might regret that. Yeah. No, you remind me of my own family, so it's awesome. Yeah. No, thank you so much for having me. I appreciate it. Yeah. Mom, I love you. Dad, I love you. Chad, I love you. Hayley I love everybody. >> Hayley, what if I Hayley, I love you. Chad, I love you. Karen, I love you. Bob, I love Just dry tap. >> you. Karen, thank you for coming um all the way from New Zealand and Bob, I love you. I said I love everybody. Okay, don't look at me. >> [laughter] >> We will see you on Sunday. Bye.